Has the Mario series...given up?

[BooDestroyer]

It seems that recently, the entire Mario series seem to be stuck in a rut. They're always going on about how Mario is made to evolve with the system technology, but the last time it truly evolved was in 2007 with Super Mario Galaxy. That's still the last time the series did anything "grand", but after that, it all just...stopped.


The spin-offs have turned out so tame and sterile too. Mario Kart 8, as amazing as it is, still hasn't hit that mark in terms of characters. Sure, we got the Koopalings there, but the rest are still the unavoidable babies and all that crap. It still feels like the last time spin-offs tried to do anything interesting with character lineups was in Mario Tennis for N64 where they brought back Daisy somehow and came up with Waluigi. Why can't they do anything more like that again? Why can't we have other characters like E. Gadd playable in these? He was supposed to be in Mario Kart DS, but dammit, Dry Bones. (That reminds me, compare LM2 to the GCN original! But that's another story entirely)

And what the hell happened to all the Galaxy NPCs? Bees, Whittles, and the rest? The Piantas just keep coming, but most of these other guys supposedly failed the test of time. I'm already impressed enough that the Lumas, Rosalina, and even Nabbit have earned their spots as mainstays. 3D World showed a few signs that the Mario series was capable of pushing further - like Bowser's theme park and the Cat Suit - but...the Sprixie Kingdom is nothing but a Mushroom Kingdom clone! Surprise appearance in MT:US aside, the Sprixies only seemed to exist so that Peach could be playable in 3D World. And then there's poor Plessie...

Hell, the RPGs don't feel like RPGs anymore either. Just weird adventure games starring Mario. Even Paper Jam already looks like it's Sticker Star all over again (for the most part). Remember when they used to have unique and interesting characters like Prince Peasley and Rawk Hawk? Well, we're not gonna get any of that anymore, as they're now so hell bent on using the bare minimum cast of characters. Last time they actually did go above and beyond was Dream Team, but even then, Alphadream had to fight to keep it that way. And the fact that they have to keep using different colored Toads in most places just shows how out of ideas for new characters they really are (not necessarily an RPG thing, mind, but goes for the Mario series in general).

Super Mario Maker, while a new concept, is still blatantly derived from the older games. Will the Mario series start taking chances again, or continue playing it safe like they are now? I acknowledge that lore isn't Mario's strongest suit, but it's like they're not even trying anymore.

 

[ThAshleyChannel]

The Mario games were pretty bad these last few years. I think Nintendo wants to play it safe, like these Mario spin-offs
are becoming the Call of duty of Nintendo. Nothing but the same, but small changes but those small ones are not enough.
Nintendo has some very cool characters in there pocket but only take out the ones nobody either cares about or want.

The Green fairy is as worse of a choice as the Honey queen bee in Mario kart 7. Maybe things will start to change in the NX, but that's
a strong Maybe. I'm starting to get bored with Nintendo lately and find myself playing my good ol Xbox360/one more often these days. Only reason I still
play on Nintendo is because of free online and hope for Ashley being in some sort of new game.

I don't mind these RPG games though. There no Paper mario TTYD, but it's still pretty fun. Nintendo has to get there things together.
It's about time they changed up Mario, it'd be for the best. No Mario spin-off had very good characters in a long time, but link was cool in Mario kart 8.
Seems like we're getting more and more clones in spin-offs. Like Pink-gold peach?

Nintendo has all these great characters to use in a spin-off game but chooses clones or characters nobody wants.
I'm still pretty pissed at the green fairy freak.

 

[Melluh]

In hindsight it almost feels like Galaxy was... foreshadowing how repetitive everything would become. You're in SPACE, which should allow for completely new places and adventures, you get Rosalina as a new character which feels like the true focus of the game... yet the story is PEACH IS KIDNAPPED BY BOWSER DO SOMETHING for no reason other than tradition, Rosie turns out to do absolutely nothing, and space is filled with goombas and the same enemies Mario has always encountered but in smaller portions of land. That also happen to be the same places Mario always visits (water world, grass world, spoopy world, bowser army theme with cannons and bombs...). It's like they just got stuck with what Mario was supposed to be and couldn't bring anything new beyond a concept.

What I don't get is, this obviously isn't a matter of running out of ideas, as the TRACKS of Mario Kart and the like show there's a lot of potential to tackle the same 'desert, grass, ice, rock, lava' level configuration in very different ways, but they just... don't. They got lazy with the level design, they got lazy with the character selection, they got lazy with the mechanics, the music... heck, let the new Mario Tennis be proof of it all. Same old characters, one newbie to justify the new game, a stupid new gimmick to sell the game, and amiibos. They're strippin it down to the bare minimum to justify a new game, and it fucking sucks because it shows the lack of effort. Even Mario Maker is like 'guys, I don't think we can milk NSMB franchise anymore after this, so go make your own'.

Even the RPGs feel like a joke compared to what they used to be. M&L is 60% tutorials and wacky side characters whose personality depends on a single verbal tic, fuckin STARLOW NEEDS TO DIE ALREADY, and Paper Mario is now apparently a big pun? heck, Paper Jam feels like another excuse to sell. Put the TWO mario RPGS TOGETHER, you GOTTA HAVE IT, MAN. ...Really, when are they gonna see how ratkiddy it all is and start putting some love into games again instead of making it all about living off their past success?

also just a parenthesis but why does everyone shit on Honey Queen being in MK7? She's quite the original addition, and I frankly believe the lack of acceptance towards new characters is what keeps Ninty from trying that again. ''Okay but WHERE is this other character I can play as in any other game!?''. ...and then they bring em back and people cry like if it was something new. Ninty benefits from not trying anything new, once more, and the fans are happy throwing their money at em. ...Granted, I know it's not that simple, but come on, it shows the other way around too; Rosalina has done absolutely nothing yet she's so popular Ninty knows they will sell more copies just by giving her a skirt.

Anyways, yeah, they really seem to have given up. I really can only hope their last games do so bad, and that Mario Maker serves as a means to stop their glorification of SMB3, that their only way out is to start trying new stuff.

 

[Glowsquid]

And what the hell happened to all the Galaxy NPCs? Bees, Whittles, and the rest? The Piantas just keep coming, but most of these other guys supposedly failed the test of time. I'm already impressed enough that the Lumas, Rosalina, and even Nabbit have earned their spots as mainstays.

How are the games different in that respect. The clear majority of the characters introduced in sunshine were one-offs. you don't see the strollin' stus, flying pigs or tanookis appearing in games since then

and space is filled with goombas and the same enemies Mario has always encountered but in smaller portions of land.

Except for all the new generic enemies and bosses the game introduce, I guess?

Even Mario Maker is like 'guys, I don't think we can milk NSMB franchise anymore after this, so go make your own'.

I find it odd anyone would accuse Mario Maker of being an hacked-together souless cash-in considering the obvious effort that went into making an approachable editor and the game's quirky presentation. Is every USG-focused game "lazy" and "souless"?

heck, let the new Mario Tennis be proof of it all. Same old characters, one newbie to justify the new game, a stupid new gimmick to sell the game, and amiibos. They're strippin it down to the bare minimum to justify a new game, and it fucking sucks because it shows the lack of effort.

mario,s tennis state is explainable by it being clearly rushed to fill a spot in a release schedule after the Wii U's two planned holiday titles were delayed, not a coinceited effort to make the game more "boring" than it would otherwise be.

----

SMB3 fellatio in the platformers and the murder of paper mario are definitely Bad Things, but I'm not too fussed. NSMB U bored me, but presentation is only one of the many raisins why

 

[CM30]

You already posted this at DK Vine:

http://www.dkvine.com/interactive/forums/index.php?showtopic=11482

Has the Mario series gotten less interesting? Well yes, but you might be exaggerating a bit.

Edit: As for the Mario Galaxy character complaints. Yeah, okay. Completely ignore all these guys then:

Or the numerous new bosses and characters for the sequel, like Gobblegut or Sorbetti or Squizzard or Glamdozer as enemies and Lubba as a character or whoever else. Or the new ones from 3D Land, like the Sprixie princesses, Motley Bossblob, King and Queen Hisstocrat, Boss Broulder or King Ka Thunk.

 

[BooDestroyer]

SMB3 fellatio in the platformers and the murder of paper mario are definitely Bad Things, but I'm not too fussed. NSMB U bored me, but presentation is only one of the many raisins why

Don't you guys mean SMB1, not SMB3?


And yes, that's the thing. It's the overall presentation of the games right now that are playing it safe.

 

[warelander]

also just a parenthesis but why does everyone shit on Honey Queen being in MK7? She's quite the original addition, and I frankly believe the lack of acceptance towards new characters is what keeps Ninty from trying that again. ''Okay but WHERE is this other character I can play as in any other game!?''. ...and then they bring em back and people cry like if it was something new. Ninty benefits from not trying anything new, once more, and the fans are happy throwing their money at em. ...Granted, I know it's not that simple, but come on, it shows the other way around too; Rosalina has done absolutely nothing yet she's so popular Ninty knows they will sell more copies just by giving her a skirt.

I never saw reluctance towards new characters, after all Nabbid has become rather popular, the Sprixie in Ultra Smash is fairly well recieved and yes, while Rosalina hasn't done much thats worth noting and attracts some really obssesed and creepy fans, she is still pretty new and popular.

Now I can't speak for everyone about their opinion regarding Honey Queen, but let's be honest here, is there anything even remotly notable about her, other then being a very out there choice? Unlike the other three I mentioned earlier, I have never heard anyone talk about her prior to her inclusion in a spin off, unlike other Galaxy characters and species she clearly didn't do anything to make an impression on players and it's not like she is has done anything either, so nobody is going to cheer when she becomes playable in a game, at least regulars like Luigi or Wario did things to make people like them and be happy to see them in new games, even if it is the 100th time.

 

[BooDestroyer]

Yeah, the Honey Queen was kind of a creepy character in Galaxy, what with having to crawl on her thorax. I think people hated her for that.

 

[Glowsquid]

Don't you guys

I didn't know I am an hive mind edit: oh, fuck me

Stuff like the koopalings boss battles, airships, elements from SMB3 like the tanooki suit and the p-wing being brought back (often with some kind of fanfare) the world themes being the same (give or take the giant levels and rock levels) as SMB3 and in the same order... etc are definitely meant to evoke SMB3 specifically.

 

[BooDestroyer]

I didn't know I am an hive mind

glorification of SMB3

But, I see what you're saying.

 

[Melluh]

oh wow i was pissed off

Edit: As for the Mario Galaxy character complaints. Yeah, okay. Completely ignore all these guys then:

View attachment 846

Or the numerous new bosses and characters for the sequel, like Gobblegut or Sorbetti or Squizzard or Glamdozer as enemies and Lubba as a character or whoever else. Or the new ones from 3D Land, like the Sprixie princesses, Motley Bossblob, King and Queen Hisstocrat, Boss Broulder or King Ka Thunk.

Most of em (and the ones with a bigger focus at that) are pretty much a mix of common Mario enemies. Galaxy does bring some newcomers specially for the bosses, I should have worded that better, I'm just pissed off at how the originality is very comparable to what Sunshine brought up, except Sunshine is still set in the same planet. Like you'd think being in many different galaxies would let the designers do something more alien than variations of the same guys you see in every other game. My complaints were more headed towards the fact it feels very weighed down by tradition when it could have been pretty damn cool had the people behind it taken some liberties. ...And how it got a lot worse with the time, really.

I find it odd anyone would accuse Mario Maker of being an hacked-together souless cash-in considering the obvious effort that went into making an approachable editor and the game's quirky presentation. Is every USG-focused game "lazy" and "souless"?

Nah, it definitely ain't that bad! but it does come off as the ultimate effort to milk people's... nostalgia, I guess? feels like it's what all the glorification of retro mario games has come down to, plus smash/amiibo hype for extra sales. I dunno, I guess it's just because of the time it happened to come out at that I find it so... not-genuine. What I meant is they seem to be making the most out of repeating the same atmosphere/concepts before they're forced to move on... If that ever happens, that's it.

mario,s tennis state is explainable by it being clearly rushed to fill a spot in a release schedule after the Wii U's two planned holiday titles were delayed, not a coinceited effort to make the game more "boring" than it would otherwise be.

Still amounts to the game being cheaply compromised to sell instead of making sure it's good tho. I ain't saying they should do it for the art because I know business doesn't work like that, it just feels very... murky, I guess. Like it's almost disrespectful to sell it as a completed game.

All in all, what I meant is that they feel like they're putting their priorities in selling more with less effort instead of making good games. It just felt like with every new console they had a particular identity for their games, and now it's like the aesthetic is recycled stuff with a sickeningly clean look to them. Even with things like character inclusion, it feels like... they manufacture the popularity themselves, or take advantage of it when it's unexpected? I was defending Honey Queen precisely because it was very unexpected, it feels WAY too fresh for the roster and she's given a really good use. ...Everything now is like a very logical turn of events, so that sense of surprise is gone.

So yeah, sorry if I sounded real bitter, I just... really feel Nintendo has given up trying to be creative, at least with Mario. And it was my favourite thing about them; they would always do something unexpected, and you could always look forwards to what the next game would bring, because it felt like everything was possible. ...Now it's like you know exactly what you're gonna see because it's what the fans at large want. It's logical that they wouldn't wanna risk it if they already know what will sell, but god damn, just imagine what they could DO if they tried something new, or if they brought back something that's in serious need of a second chance instead of abusing the same concepts over and over again. :c

 

[ChanceTime]

I'm not ever excited when one is announced, I find.

 

[Glowsquid]

Nah, it definitely ain't that bad! but it does come off as the ultimate effort to milk people's... nostalgia, I guess?

..? it's an editor game because editor and creativity-focused games are becoming increasingly popular. it's based on the 2d mario platformers are more commercially successful and because making an editor for 2d game is magnitudes simpler than a 3D one.

 

[herrherr]

Super Mario 3D World is probably the best 3D Mario game. I felt like all of the finest aspects of the series came together in glorious display. It is a masterwork. So, the main series is as strong as ever. I am not overly fond of the recent 2D outings, but they are solid entries.

The spinoffs... Other than Mario Kart 8, they are severely lacking.

 

[Crescent-Moon Villager]

The Galaxy games were the last ones I was excited for tbh. NSMB (and now the RPGs) are so homogenized that I can't even tell one from the other. Not even New Super Mario World (original name there, Nintendo) got me excited. I played it and beat it, but I didn't 100% it like I did with all the other 3D Mario games, it felt like a chore to play. I think I'm done with Mario games for good now, unless they come out with something different, like Mario Maker.

These days I actually get more excited for the Mario Kart releases than the actual Mario platformers :b

 

[Melluh]

..? it's an editor game because editor and creativity-focused games are becoming increasingly popular. it's based on the 2d mario platformers are more commercially successful and because making an editor for 2d game is magnitudes simpler than a 3D one.

I'm just saying the time it came out feels like its mostly because they already used and abused Mario 2D platformers so the only thing left to do is let people do their own to keep milking it, like if that's what the identity of the game is based around: more 2D Mario except now you put it together. I'm disappointed that THIS is what people take as a refreshing new installment when mario hacks have been around forever, or even call it a spiritual sucessor to Mario Paint when that quirky baby had such an identity of its own that people still recognize it as its own thing.

It's perfectly logical for it to exist, the concept isn't what I was refering to with being too clingy to the fanbase, just the specific way/circumstances in which it was done. ...Then again, I guess that's because this is the perfect moment for it to exist, and I'm just being pissy because I just want them to move on from the ''classic Mario you know and love but with a little twist'' mentality because it's getting ridiculous :c

 

[warelander]

I find Super Mario Maker refreshing because of how much personality it has, there are small details and eastereggs around almost every corner, you can do stuff that you would NEVER see in a conventional Mario plattformer (winged Bowser with a Hammer Bros shooting Bullet Bill Blaster on his back), there are some things where Nintendo steps a tiny bit out of their comfort zone, such as having Waluigi in it and it's just over all really quirky (even applies to the manual).

Yes, it is a level editor, but it has actual charm and cares about the flavor that even small details can bring, which is something that the very sterile New SMB series only rarly did and that alone is refreshing and a step into the right direction, thought personally I'd like to see the series tackle new concepts ala' Captain Toad more often, because that game was a really unique spin on your typical Mario plattformeresque game.

 

[BooDestroyer]

Right, the series isn't entirely "soul-dead" (only in certain sectors - like characters and lore - you can say that about it).

No other Mario game has ever stacked non-Goomba enemies like that (this is often shown as the highlight of SMM). Future Mario games should at least use concepts like this more often. (But how likely is it that we're actually getting another SMM after this?)

personally I'd like to see the series tackle new concepts ala' Captain Toad more often, because that game was a really unique spin on your typical Mario plattformeresque game.

Got any examples of what they could do? But yes, I'd be okay with this as well, so long as they try to put more resources into it. (Captain Toad isn't a big game, and wasn't meant to be)

 

[ShyGuyXXL]

Well, if they continue like this they will lose my financial support.
I won't buy Paper Jam. It'll be the first time that I haven't bought a Mario RPG but after Sticker Star I don't even wanna give it a chance. Even if the gameplay was amazing (which I doubt, it'll probably be more of the same stuff we had in dream team. [Though, there are some questionable changes like how you can't boost an additional stat when leveling up which seems fishy...]) even then I'd just feel cheated playing a Mario RPG, heck not just any Mario RPG, A MARIO & LUIGI X PAPER MARIO CROSSOVER which looks totally soulless.

How do you do that? How do you take two of the most charming Mario spin-offs, put them together and make them boring?
You'd have to do it on purpose!
Which is why no one can tell me that this wasn't Miyamoto's doing again.
Usually Nintendo is ALL ABOUT the fanservice. They love the references, they love the cameos, they love baiting people with nostalgia. So where is that here? Where is the history of Paper Mario that we love? Where is the history of Mario & Luigi that we love?

IF YOU'RE NOT GONNA MAKE NEW THINGS YOU COULD AT LEAST GIVE US THE NOSTALGIA!!!


-_- I need to calm down...


So why is this happening?
Some people say Nintendo wants to only use "recognizable" characters. That's why they only use "main series" Mario characters.
Others say it's just Miyamoto being arrogant and overprotective of his precious baby which is the mario franchise and so he doesn't wanna see characters that he didn't create.
Both reasons are utter bullshit.

So yeah, any game that comes along and is this bland I won't buy it. Out of protest.
Even if the gameplay seems great, if the visuals are just shit copied from NSMB, if there are no new characters, stories, enemies, etc I won't buy.


...Man, this whole situation makes me love Tropical Freeze even more. That game does everything right.
Nintendo should take a page from Retro Studio's book. They know how to make a new entry in an old series work.

 

[BooDestroyer]

At this point, "BUT MIYAMOTO" doesn't actually mean anything with the Mario series anymore. He's hardly that involved with the series, and he didn't outright tell the RPG teams to dumb those games down. That was all their own fault for going at it the wrong way, due to misinterpreting something he said.