How much does uniquenes matter to you?

warelander

warelander

Some random guy online
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As far as Smash characters are concerned...
I couldn't tell you the amount of times I have seen people getting bashed for voicing disapointment regarding Smash 4s character roster...
We all know how the roster looks and that a lot of heavily requested characters (K.Rool,Ridley,Mewtwo) didn't make the cut, while suprise choices like Rosalina and Robin did, despite not beeing heavily requested, a lot of people are ok with this because their movesets are very unique while others are bummed that about those choices because they don't care about them as characters.
What side of the argument are you on?
As for me; I'm honestly in the latter camp. Don't get me wrong I can apreciate the creativity that went into making thies characters possible, but from a personal standpoint: Toad as a (Dr)Mario clone or Kat & Ana as Ice climbers with swords wold have made me more happy than Rosalina ever could, because, you know I actually like them. I mean look at Bowser Jr: I hated him beeing in the game, until I found out that the Koopalings are his alts, now I love his inclusion and all that just because he happens to have characters I love as his alts...
I don't wan't the game to cater to just me and I definentaly don't want all newcomers to be clones, but if I could cut let's say Greninja (a character I know nothing about)in favor of giving Ganondorf or Wario a new moveset, than I would take it.
How about you guys, anyone feel the same or am I completely missing the point of Smash?
 
This is a representation of a company's first party characters with a few main (one requested) third parties here and there. I could go into detail about every little detail that isn't included in the 3DS games like the amount of music. The problem is that there are some limits you have to take so each series is represented based on the size of the series and that the thing is fitting enough to even be in the game at all. I think we shouldn't go into detail on what should be in the games or not because it's a lot of trouble and if it ain't broke don't fix it. Sure Wario didn't get a full renovated moveset so it would be appealing to people who played Brawl (basically everyone who bought Brawl will most likely get SSB4) and because it is easier to work with for the developers and other people working on the characters.

Roster and individuality wise, I believe that each character represents an era in All Star mode nicely as well as the games they are in. The Koopalings and Bowser Jr. cover a lot of great games that were influential in the Mario series (Superstar Saga, Sunshine, New Super Mario Bros.). Dr. Mario was the first main puzzle series to have a representer for it. Mewtwo and Lucario were both a key part of the anime besides in the games. Age wise you got the NES era (Luigi, Peach, Zelda, Little Mac, DH, R.O.B., Pit, etc.), the SNES/late NES era (Mega Man, Marth, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, etc.), *skips 1998* the GBA/GCN/DS/Wii era (Ike, Olimar, Lucario, Shulk), and the 3DS era (Greninja, Robin, Lucina, Dark Pit). So I think Greninja and Lucina fits because it keeps Robin from being left out (and because they are a part of the modern era).

So that's my thoughts...
 
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If I could get for example Ridley in the game as a clone I would decline.
But if I could get Black Shadow as a clone I would happily accept.
It all depends on the character.
I love how they made Bowser Jr. (one of my most wanted btw) so unique instead of as a Bowser clone.
 
JoKeR said:
It all depends on the character.
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The character and the moveset they are cloning.
Blood Falcon beeing a clone of Captain Falcon is fine, since he is a literal clone of him and Toad beeing a (Dr)Mario clone is fine, since the Mario characters play rather similar anyway.
Having King K. Rool as a Kirby clone or (shudder) Mona as a Wario clone on the other hand, would be all kinds of abysmal...
 
To be honest, screw 'uniqueness'.

Okay, being unique can be cool. Wario Land has some really unique and interesting levels and bosses. Mario & Luigi (as a series) is the same.



Above: Exhibit A

But...

Smash Bros isn't the place for 'unique'. It's a crossover, and you know what crossovers are good for?

Fanservice. The non sexual kind of course. People don't buy or play or read or watch crossovers to be wowed by originality. They do so because they want to see their favourite characters interact with their other favourite characters in memorable locations with epic music remixes in the background.

And so in Smash Bros, people want characters they care about. I want characters I care about. Bit part nobodies from old abandoned series and characters only a few have heard of don't fit that. K Rool is a cool choice. Ridley is a cool choice. The Koopalings are arguably cool, so they in essence excuse the very not cool Bowser Jr. But Dark Pit? Who gives a toss about him? Same with Dr Mario. Or maybe even the Duck Hunt Dog, Rosalina and Shulk. They've got fans, but... many better character choices have at least ten times the amount of fans. Smash Bros is pretty much a Nintendo fan dream first, game second. Or at least, as far as sales and my opinion goes, it probably should be. Unique characters matter less than popular, iconic ones.

Uniqueness is also often used as a crutch for 'do whatever the hell I like, other people be damned'. Especially in a lot of recent Nintendo games and their design decisions, which seem to be more 'fun for the development team' rather than 'interesting for the person playing the game'. It's why we got so much mediocre Wario spinoff games that didn't really realise what was good about the Wario Land or WarioWare series, because being 'clever' was prioritised over making something that people would actually want (see, Wario Master of Disguise). Or why we got Nintendo Land in general, because Nintendo thought the developers should have fun rather than the players, so we got something that frankly speaking, most people didn't want in the first place.
 
^This, so, much...
When I first saw Smash 64 on shelves my eyes where drawn towards the characters first, I didn't know what Smash was about or how original it was, I wanted because I saw Mario & Pikachu in the center of the cover...
The Smash community always makes a big point out of characters HAVING to be unique at all cost no matter how iconic or popular.
Just look at Rosalina, barely anyone asked for her but once she was announced everyone praised her and bashed other (more requested) Mario characters like Waluigi,Toad or Paper Mario among others, because she was just so "ZOMG UNIQUE LOLZ"...
And don't get me wrong, I can admire a creative moveset but having your personal favorites excludet from Nintendos only crossover series is a major letdown...
And yes characters can influence a lot, just look at Bowser Jr, even people that don't like him can be happy about his inclusion thanks to the Koopalings, all 8 characters share one moveset and yet, it's theyre bound to make more people happy than one unique character ever could, just for the virtoue of beeing able to use characters that they love...
 
Vidyas are fundamentaly about pushing buttons to make stuff happen on the screen. In 10 years, nobody worth listening to is gooing to be butthurt about Duck Hunt dog's inclusion. However, in 10 years, people are still going to talk about Smash 4's Punching Dudes action.

As someone who doesn't have a sentimental attachment to most of Nintendo's IPs, I'd rather let the designers make the characters they actually want to make as that likely is going to make for better Punching Dudes action. Chances are that if quote-unquote popular characters were imposed via executive fiat, they'd be dissapointing from a fanservice standpoint anyway (and chances are that they could still end up being totally amazing 'n' shit because true creativity is more often than not bred from restrictions. Unsubstantiated hypotheticals are a bitch, eh?)

People don't buy or play or read or watch crossovers to be wowed by originality. They do so because they want to see their favourite characters interact with their other favourite characters in memorable locations with epic music remixes in the background. [...] people want characters they care about. [...] K Rool is a cool choice. Ridley is a cool choice.
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"Giving the fans what they want" is a dangerous balancing act. Of course you have to not alienate the core fringe that buy your game at a midnight launch, but on the other hand, it's often been noted that the most vocal online fans are not representative of the average buyer, and several franchises broke their back in bending over to appeal to vocal niches (see G.I. Joe, He-Man, Soul Calibur V, the entire U.S comic book industry... etc).

I doubt a large chunk of the 10+ millions people that bought Melee know or care who Ridley and K. Rool are : p.
 
Glowsquid said:
I doubt a large chunk of the 10+ millions people that bought Melee know or care who Ridley and K. Rool are : p.
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But they do know them...




...from the trophy room


1352667546708.jpeg


....that one was awful, I apologize...
 
I'd... argue that a new proeminent character in Nintendo's main franchise is infact more recognizable than the recurring villain in a modestly-selling franchise and another villain who hasn't appeared since 2oo7 (or I'd argue, hasn't had a not-shitty role in a game people actually care about since 1999), but that's not my point.

Character selection matters... to a point. Characters like Meelo, Link, Pikachu are already in, and those are the characters mainstream audiences recognize and give a figurative excrement about. It's totally fine to want characters like K. Rool and Ridley and be dissapointed they were passed over while terrible choices like Dark Pit got in (although I wonder if people seriously think such a simple recolour can really "steal" anybody's slot), but it's another thing to take this state of matter and say it's proof dem cray-cray gaem designers are torpedoing their franchise's sales potential.

I mean, I was personally dissapointed Mario Kart 8 didn't include WarioWare characters, but I'd never try to turn it into an argument that Nintendo is shooting itself in the foot and losing millions ignoring an unserviced niche. Because that'd be dumb.
 
Glowsquid said:
I'd... argue that a new proeminent character in Nintendo's main franchise is infact more recognizable than the recurring villain in a modestly-selling franchise and another villain who hasn't appeared since 2oo7 (or I'd argue, hasn't had a not-shitty role in a game people actually care about since 1999), but that's not my point.

Character selection matters... to a point. Characters like Meelo, Link, Pikachu are already in, and those are the characters mainstream audiences recognize and give a figurative excrement about. It's totally fine to want characters like K. Rool and Ridley and be dissapointed they were passed over while terrible choices like Dark Pit got in (although I wonder if people seriously think such a simple recolour can really "steal" anybody's slot), but it's another thing to take this state of matter and say it's proof dem cray-cray gaem designers are torpedoing their franchise's sales potential.

I mean, I was personally dissapointed Mario Kart 8 didn't include WarioWare characters, but I'd never try to turn it into an argument that Nintendo is shooting itself in the foot and losing millions ignoring an unserviced niche. Because that'd be dumb.
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We need a wario DLC :P
 
Glowsquid said:
I'd... argue that a new proeminent character in Nintendo's main franchise is infact more recognizable than the recurring villain in a modestly-selling franchise and another villain who hasn't appeared since 2oo7 (or I'd argue, hasn't had a not-shitty role in a game people actually care about since 1999), but that's not my point.

Character selection matters... to a point. Characters like Meelo, Link, Pikachu are already in, and those are the characters mainstream audiences recognize and give a figurative excrement about. It's totally fine to want characters like K. Rool and Ridley and be dissapointed they were passed over while terrible choices like Dark Pit got in (although I wonder if people seriously think such a simple recolour can really "steal" anybody's slot), but it's another thing to take this state of matter and say it's proof dem cray-cray gaem designers are torpedoing their franchise's sales potential.

I mean, I was personally dissapointed Mario Kart 8 didn't include WarioWare characters, but I'd never try to turn it into an argument that Nintendo is shooting itself in the foot and losing millions ignoring an unserviced niche. Because that'd be dumb.
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You do know how popular Donkey Kong Country is, right? Or have the 3D Mario games (with Rosalina) are less popular than the 2D ones (without her)? Nintendo hates to talk about this, but the former is Nintendo's third or fourth best selling series, at least in terms of ones with characters. More so than Metroid and perhaps even Zelda.

There's also the fact few people actively HATE K Rool, whereas quite a few people... actively detest the very existence of Rosalina. And that Rosalina, for her importance in maybe one or two games, has at best bit roles in the rest of them. Mario Kart? Yeah, Dry Bones got into more games than her there, but no one's suggesting he should be playable. Mario Galaxy? Big role in 1, near non existent cameo in the second. 3D World? A secret character. Playable, but secret none the less.
 
CM30 said:
You do know how popular Donkey Kong Country is, right? Or have the 3D Mario games (with Rosalina) are less popular than the 2D ones (without her)? Nintendo hates to talk about this, but the former is Nintendo's third or fourth best selling series, at least in terms of ones with characters. More so than Metroid and perhaps even Zelda.

There's also the fact few people actively HATE K Rool, whereas quite a few people... actively detest the very existence of Rosalina. And that Rosalina, for her importance in maybe one or two games, has at best bit roles in the rest of them. Mario Kart? Yeah, Dry Bones got into more games than her there, but no one's suggesting he should be playable. Mario Galaxy? Big role in 1, near non existent cameo in the second. 3D World? A secret character. Playable, but secret none the less.
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There's one excuse. KKR has a theme for him already in Brawl (though... he's not playable). And Super Mario Galaxy was very innovative and fun (reminds me of a Game Theory that says innovative games don't sell and that Rosalina is the daughter of Luigi). Sure Dry Bones were in SMB3 and the original Mario Kart and DK Jr. was in a few older games, but Rosalina has a lot of backstory the equivalent of the Pikmin series does (or at least two Pikmin games). Sure no one might've cared but it was truly a different series of it's own where there are sometimes no places to go out of bounds and new powerups/elements of platforming. That and/or to even out the male/female representatives. The game is after all made for everyone to play and for everyone to be happy (not a specific group of fans).
 
I'm not particularly invested in arguing Kay-rool is this shitty irrelevant character nobody likes and I'm well aware of the ridicule of saying "I'm not going to argue about which character is popular because that's not my point" and then resuming arguing about characters popularity, so yeah, sure. It was stupid of me to make that aside and I admit defeat.

I still do want to respond to this, though:

There's also the fact few people actively HATE K Rool, whereas quite a few people... actively detest the very existence of Rosalina.
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From what are you basing this off? That one shitposter on the DK Vine forum? If I were to assess either character's popularity, I could as easily say little girls love Rosalina, creepy neckbeards love Rosalina, and that I've routinely seen peeps condemn K. Rool as being a "Bowser ripoff" or a shitty 90's reject. Without actual data, discussions about this kinda thing are kinda worthless : P.
 
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