Do you feel the Wario Land series doesn't get enough appreciation?

[Koopaul]

that's the thing tho; if you judge Wario from his franchise (both of them, even!) there's no relation to Mario at all. Wario doesn't depend on Mario to be a good character.

I'm not saying Wario needs Mario to be a good character. I never said that. What I'm saying is that even when Wario's own franchises (the ones that had nothing to do with Mario) were big and prominent, he was STILL there in Mario games playing the same roles he does now.

I think that what you say just proves that Wario has been reduced to a poopy filler character, and it's certainly not because his franchise flopped, like others Nintendo has been show to exploit by title alone.

Nothing has changed except Wario doesn't have as many of his own games. He's always been in the Party, Kart, and Sports titles.

It's weird really and I'm not blaming the fans, but it says a lot that Nintendo has completely sold us this image that Wario is just a bad Mario and we believe it, because they don't advertise his franchise enough, when it's good enough to deserve that both by sales and by virtue of their quality.

Wario was always "bad Mario" to some extent. That's what his name means! Even during the days Wario Land and WarioWare were prominent, there were games where Wario and Mario were rivals.

Get this. The year that WarioWare Inc. came out was the same year Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Party 5 came out. It shows that while Wario had games that were completely divorced from the Mario series he was still starring in just as many Mario games.

You seem to be under the assumption that while Wario was starring in Wario Land and WarioWare games he did not appear in any Mario games. That's not true. He was. He always was.

It's true that WarioWare and Wario Land games have nothing to do with Mario, that doesn't mean his ties to Mario aren't strong outside of those games.

In short, while Wario own games have nothing to do with Mario, he has always been a part of the Mario cast. Meanwhile, the young tie wearing DK of Donkey Kong Country had a whole console generation of games where he never appeared in a Mario game. He finally did years later in Mario Kart 64 but his series had 5 games before that.

 

[Dangerous Duck]

I'm not saying Wario needs Mario to be a good character. I never said that. What I'm saying is that even when Wario's own franchises (the ones that had nothing to do with Mario) were big and prominent, he was STILL there in Mario games playing the same roles he does now.



Nothing has changed except Wario doesn't have as many of his own games. He's always been in the Party, Kart, and Sports titles.



Wario was always "bad Mario" to some extent. That's what his name means! Even during the days Wario Land and WarioWare were prominent, there were games where Wario and Mario were rivals.

Get this. The year that WarioWare Inc. came out was the same year Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Party 5 came out. It shows that while Wario had games that were completely divorced from the Mario series he was still starring in just as many Mario games.

You seem to be under the assumption that while Wario was starring in Wario Land and WarioWare games he did not appear in any Mario games. That's not true. He was. He always was.

It's true that WarioWare and Wario Land games have nothing to do with Mario, that doesn't mean his ties to Mario aren't strong outside of those games.

In short, while Wario own games have nothing to do with Mario, he has always been a part of the Mario cast. Meanwhile, the young tie wearing DK of Donkey Kong Country had a whole console generation of games where he never appeared in a Mario game. He finally did years later in Mario Kart 64 but his series had 5 games before that.

Mario Kart 64 started Wario's full-time career with Mario and friends. Before then he'd never been in a game with DK or Bowser. He wasn't in Super Mario Kart in 1992.

When Wario and Donkey Kong (Rareware's Donkey Kong, that is) arrived on the scene in Mario Kart 64 they were treated like a big deal. They had never appeared in a mainline Mario game done by Miyamoto and his EAD team.

Just for the record, the reason I say "Rareware's Donkey Kong" is because that was 100% their incarnation of DK - People forget that they created the hip 90's gorilla with the cowlick hair and tie (Nintendo would always credit Rare for supplying DK's model in games back then, too).

 

[Count Cannoli]

Five or six years ago I bought a pair of Wario slippers with the Wario Land II logo stitched on the inside.

Where did you bought them? I would like to have a pair too.

 

[Dangerous Duck]

Where did you bought them? I would like to have a pair too.

Oooh. Sorry, Count. I'm afraid I haven't seen them on sale in years (at least five or more). I think it was 2010 or 2011.

They were being sold by various outlets on eBay, which is where I bought mine. I imagine they're long out of production.

 

[Koopaul]

Mario Kart 64 started Wario's full-time career with Mario and friends. Before then he'd never been in a game with DK or Bowser. He wasn't in Super Mario Kart in 1992.

He appeared in games like Wario's Woods and Mario & Wario prior to that. Not to mention the first Wario Land game was called Super Mario Land 3 and had a plot centered around a Peach statue.

There was only one Wario game to be completely divorced of Mario that existed before Mario Kart 64, and it was Virtual Boy Wario Land. Prior to that, Wario always had some involvement with Mario himself or the Mario cast.

 

[Magma]

Do you feel like Wario is a Mario character?

 

[Dangerous Duck]

He appeared in games like Wario's Woods and Mario & Wario prior to that. Not to mention the first Wario Land game was called Super Mario Land 3 and had a plot centered around a Peach statue.

There was only one Wario game to be completely divorced of Mario that existed before Mario Kart 64, and it was Virtual Boy Wario Land. Prior to that, Wario always had some involvement with Mario himself or the Mario cast.

Yes, I own and love all those games. You're also forgetting Wario Blast, which was devoid of Mario.

I was pointing out that none of those are considered mainline (or even canonical). They weren't penned by the hand of Miyamoto and EAD, so it's treated with no recognition or appreciation, which is what this thread is addressing. Only Miyamoto's work is held on a pedestal today. He is Nintendo/Mario, and nothing else.

 

[Melluh]

You seem to be under the assumption that while Wario was starring in Wario Land and WarioWare games he did not appear in any Mario games. That's not true. He was. He always was.

I don't think you're gettin me? I never argued against this, I'm just saying Wario is a Mario character because Nintendo pushes him to be so. People see him as Bad Mario because that's all he is in all the sports and karts, as if he didn't have two franchises that stand perfectly on their own; as if they weren't a better reference for Wario's character. As is his first appearance was set, definite, and nothing that's ever been done with him mattered by comparison. DK would also be a Mario character if he was given the same treatment, even if all of his games were intact, following that logic. My point is that the treatment of his character is poor because that's what Nintendo wants to do with him, when it could be so much more if the focus was on him and his games.

...and even with the timeline you mention, there's no reason why WL couldn't be referenced along the years to highlight his character instead of relying on his first appearance forever. Luigi's powers in spinoffs have sometimes changed to reference Luigi's Mansion after it came out, and his fear of boos has been a theme as well, despite it being the one single game for quite a while.

edit: for the record, I believe that a character should be judged in the use that's shown to suit him best, once more I'm not denying the connection or his roots, but just saying that shouldn't matter after Wario has shown to take care of himself, pretty much. Wouldn't call Mario a DK spinoff. Difference being that they don't let Wario shine on his own and barely even reference the fact he has his own games with zero relation to Mario, because they just don't seem to appreciate them enough.

I was pointing out that none of those are considered mainline (or even canonical). They weren't penned by the hand of Miyamoto and EAD, so it's treated with no recognition or appreciation, which is what this thread is addressing. Only Miyamoto's work is held on a pedestal today. He is Nintendo/Mario, and nothing else.

dis right here

 

[Koopaul]

I don't think you're gettin me? I never argued against this, I'm just saying Wario is a Mario character because Nintendo pushes him to be so.

But my argument is that he's always been like that since his creation. It's not something that Nintendo is just pushing now. Wario was created as a Mario character. Wario continued to be a Mario character while also maintaining his own series seperate from Mario. There was never a point where he stopped being a Mario character.

He branched off into two directions, the adventuring antihero and long time rival of Mario. They are two parts of who Wario is. You're just mad that they don't showcase more of his Land and Ware side in the Mario sport and party games. But that's not an argument that Wario isn't a Mario character. You're just simply saying "Nintendo is pushing people to think that Wario is a Mario character" and using that as an argument that he wasn't a Mario character.

People see him as Bad Mario because that's all he is in all the sports and karts, as if he didn't have two franchises that stand perfectly on their own; as if they weren't a better reference for Wario's character. DK would also be a Mario character if he was given the same treatment, even if all of his games were intact, following that logic. My point is that the treatment of his character is poor because that's what Nintendo wants to push, when it could be so much more if the focus was on him and his games

Ah but they do have references to Wario Land and WarioWare throughout the sports and kart games... although scarce. Wario rides his car from Wario Land 4 in Double Dash. Wario rides his bike from WarioWare in Mario Kart Wii. In Mario Power Tennis Wario's court has a big sign of him in his biker outfit. In the baseball games they make several references to the fact that he owns a game company. In Superstar Baseball his stage is based off of Wario World... The list goes on and on.

I was pointing out that none of those are considered mainline (or even canonical). They weren't penned by the hand of Miyamoto and EAD, so it's treated with no recognition or appreciation, which is what this thread is addressing. Only Miyamoto's work is held on a pedestal today. He isNintendo/Mario, and nothing else

I don't think that's a good argument. Super Mario Land 2, Wario's Woods, etc. They are still real games and they are still real Mario games. Mario and Mario characters were in them, therefor they are Mario games. They still have to do with Wario's roots and rise in popularity. You can't act like they don't count.

By that logic Daisy is not a Mario character because she wasn't from a Miyamoto EAD game.

 

[ShyGuyXXL]

Remember when games like Mario Tennis or Game & Watch Gallery acknowledged Wario's series? Heck, even Dr. Mario.
But now even Smash, the series that is SUPPOSED to acknowledge each character's legacy doesn't give a flying fungus.
I just wanna know why.

 

[blanche]

But my argument is that he's always been like that since his creation. It's not something that Nintendo is just pushing now. Wario was created as a Mario character. Wario continued to be a Mario character while also maintaining his own series seperate from Mario. There was never a point where he stopped being a Mario character.

He branched off into two directions, the adventuring antihero and long time rival of Mario. They are two parts of who Wario is. You're just mad that they don't showcase more of his Land and Ware side in the Mario sport and party games. But that's not an argument that Wario isn't a Mario character. You're just simply saying "Nintendo is pushing people to think that Wario is a Mario character" and using that as an argument that he wasn't a Mario character.


Ah but they do have references to Wario Land and WarioWare throughout the sports and kart games... although scarce. Wario rides his car from Wario Land 4 in Double Dash. Wario rides his bike from WarioWare in Mario Kart Wii. In Mario Power Tennis Wario's court has a big sign of him in his biker outfit. In the baseball games they make several references to the fact that he owns a game company. In Superstar Baseball his stage is based off of Wario World... The list goes on and on.


I don't think that's a good argument. Super Mario Land 2, Wario's Woods, etc. They are still real games and they are still real Mario games. Mario and Mario characters were in them, therefor they are Mario games. They still have to do with Wario's roots and rise in popularity. You can't act like they don't count.

By that logic Daisy is not a Mario character because she wasn't from a Miyamoto EAD game.

When did Melluh state that Wario "stopped being a Mario character" and when did she act like they didn't count?
Why are you saying that her being "just mad" is not an argument, when the title of this thread was a question and she answered it, meaning that she's probably not trying to argue with someone like a debate and present her points case and front for back and forth arguing about something subjective but rather just giving her personal opinion. Personally, I find it real damn cheeky you're accusing someone's personal opinion of being too angry when you're the one who decided to quote her and argue against her opinions. Not her to you and I don't recall her trying to present that as factual as well.
It seems to me you're the one getting a little belligerent and hostile here.
Btw, Melluh's "logic" (lord, I despise it when people use this word like they know what they hell they're talking about) wouldn't go to that actually. What she said was a kind of vague, personal opinion so it's hard to surmise off of what you say is apparently her logic

 

[Dangerous Duck]

Remember when games like Mario Tennis or Game & Watch Gallery acknowledged Wario's series? Heck, even Dr. Mario.
But now even Smash, the series that is SUPPOSED to acknowledge each character's legacy doesn't give a flying fungus.
I just wanna know why.

Yeah, but Dr. Mario and Game & Watch Gallery were both R&D1 series. And I guess the fellas at Camelot drew ideas straight from the source for Mario Tennis. If Camelot had made the Smash games we might have seen some Wario Land. Far better odds than HAL/Sora/Sakurai/whoever runs the Smash show.

 

[Magma]

This debate should probably start over since I think the points people were trying to make have been lost and it's just come down to people trying to disprove each other with no clear argument.

 

[Dangerous Duck]

We also need to acknowledge the jarring differences between studios and creators of specific characters/franchises. It's the reason why Miyamoto never touches Wario and always makes up nonsensical excuses like "he would need a fart attack". Wario was R&D1's bizarre answer and personal alternative to using Miyamoto's creation (Mario), so of course he'd be reluctant to use Wario in his own stuff. That would be a role reversal. Not enough people know or consider this.

 

[Mario123311]

I'll just say he's half a Mario character and half of his own in a sense (As Wario Land and Ware distanced themselves from the Mario universe though it can still be plausible it is in the same one, much like the DK universe.)

So yes, Wario is "Bad Mario" to AN EXTENT. But even then, the fact that it's all they have been acknowledging him as makes me pretty darn grumpy. It's like saying Luigi is nothing more than "Green Mario" even though he developed into his own fleshed out character more than just the pallete swap he was initially. :V And again, he kinda has Mario in his own blood but at the same time I like to see his subseries as some sort of "parody" to the Mario Series as it tends to do the exact opposite as what main Mario games tend to do from character designs and locations to gameplay. ((The first 2 Wario Land games come close to being like Mario but are still more than just "Mario with another character"))

I say I'm kind of on both sides... but can we all agree that his treatment in Smash Bros is sickening, especially with the fact they removed his trademark attack for an illogical reason. :V And don't even get me started on them not even considering making it a Custom Move.

 

[ShyGuyXXL]

Wario is just a"Bad Mario" to the same extent that Donkey Kong is just a bootleg King Kong or Mario is just a Popeye replacement or Luigi is (like previously stated) just "green Mario", or Bowser is just an evil turtle or Yoshi is just a cutesy raptor or Toad is.... (well toad IS basically just a mushroom man, but you get the point).

They all have very simple and sometimes embarrasing backgrounds but it's their legacy that has made them icons of the industry.

 

[Melluh]

@Koopaul my dude please don't be so dense? It's always been like that and it's nothing new, I completely agree with you! My point is that WW and WL stand on their own as different Nintendo franchises and the connection between them and Mario is just their starting point and nothing else. There's a distinction in how each game chooses to portray Wario, so I can say the one I like belongs in WL. Yeah they're the same character and yeah that doesn't erase him from Mario games, but I do believe there's no reason why he couldn't have branched off to the same degree DK did, other than Nintendo not caring enough for the franchise nor the character. I just don't like Mario's formulaic approach to characters and I don't wanna use it as a reference point for the final say in them, when there's proven to be alternatives that are just (if not more) valuable. ...Whatever, it's just an opinion, really. "Canon" doesn't hold a candle to quality, but that's just me.

Thanks Blanche for gettin my badly worded lil self, have some hearts ;A; ♥ ♥ ♥

Wario is just a"Bad Mario" to the same extent that Donkey Kong is just a bootleg King Kong or Mario is just a Popeye replacement or Luigi is (like previously stated) just "green Mario", or Bowser is just an evil turtle or Yoshi is just a cutesy raptor or Toad is.... (well toad IS basically just a mushroom man, but you get the point).

♥

Yeah, but Dr. Mario and Game & Watch Gallery were both R&D1 series. And I guess the fellas at Camelot drew ideas straight from the source for Mario Tennis. If Camelot had made the Smash games we might have seen some Wario Land. Far better odds than HAL/Sora/Sakurai/whoever runs the Smash show.

put R&D1 bac together, camelot kinda canonized wah clones being a thing and i dont trust em :,ccc

 

[JS Shantae]

When Wario and Donkey Kong (Rareware's Donkey Kong, that is) arrived on the scene in Mario Kart 64 they were treated like a big deal. They had never appeared in a mainline Mario game done by Miyamoto and his EAD team.

This is absolutely true. I remember the hype. It WAS a big fucking deal. As a huge Wario fan, I was stoked beyond belief. These days Wario is a staple in the roster, but some of the younger fans don't know what it was like in the '90s. We barely saw Wario, much less in a big game like Mario Kart 64. To have him AND the Rare DK (also appearing for the first time in a Mario game) was awesome beyond belief.

I wish Nintendo would do rosters like that again. Only games that came close were Mario Tennis (Daisy revived, Waluigi created) and Mario Kart Wii (Funky Kong? Awesome idea).

 

[BooDestroyer]

I say I'm kind of on both sides... but can we all agree that his treatment in Smash Bros is sickening, especially with the fact they removed his trademark attack for an illogical reason. :V And don't even get me started on them not even considering making it a Custom Move.

The fact that Wario is a hidden character in both versions of Smash 4...



Just...




Yeah.

 

[Mario123311]

I swear to god it would have pissed me off probably even more if the third parties had to be unlocked like in Brawl. ((I can't even begin to tell you how let down I felt becaues I couldn't make Mario and Sonic fight from the start... Yet I had his reveal trailer in the vault section.))