Puyo Puyo

[puyokid]

That would be precious indeed and even on just a platonic level I think the two could develop a great dynamic, the spacey and calm Sig + the energetic and mischievous Jan, very much an opposites attract kind of friendship.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing that myself! Their dynamic could be like Yu and Rei's! Of course, everyone would be scratching their heads as to how they even became friends to start with...

Funny you mention them, because neither Sig nor any of the Klugs are part of that quest, which is rather strange geddid!?! Despite how much fans like to use the Hydrangea motif for Sig and SK it's actually surprisingly underused in the games, I actually thought of a way that also connects Arle and Doppel to the red/blue motif, in a way that I feel fits them, however I have a hard time deciding whether I'm being symbolic or pretentious with it.

Wow, really? That's pretty odd. Also, it never occurred to me how Arle and Doppel. Arle share the 'Hydrangea' motif. Crazy...

One more thing, I thought "Hydrangea" was recently used as Sig's strongest attack in Puyo Tetris AND Puyo Chronicles...

There was also 20th, but the kinda sad thing about PPT is that the amount of screentime Klug gets there isn't notable because it's so much, but rather because he doesn't get noticeably less the almost everyone else, like in 7 or Chronicle.

Yeah, I didn't really think I needed to bring up 20th, consdierng what kind of a game that was in the place. As for PP7 and Chronicles, I get where you're coming from. Honestly, I hope SEGA doesn't think that there's nothing left to do with him.

BTW, here's some cool-looking Schezo art I came across.

I don't know why, but something about him here feels....intimidating. Moreso than his appearance in Madou 2...

Maybe it's the sharp eyes and messy spiky hair...

 

[warelander]

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing that myself! Their dynamic could be like Yu and Rei's! Of course, everyone would be scratching their heads as to how they even became friends to start with...

Heh yeah, I just like the idea of the two, despite their differences still ending up really close with each other, much to the confusion of others.

Wow, really? That's pretty odd. Also, it never occurred to me how Arle and Doppel. Arle share the 'Hydrangea' motif. Crazy...

One more thing, I thought "Hydrangea" was recently used as Sig's strongest attack in Puyo Tetris AND Puyo Chronicles...

It's been Sig and Strange Klug's strongest attacks since they first appeared and one of the biggest clues to their connection, it's just that it's the only time the motif is ever used.

As for Arle/Doppel, they aren't directly connected to the hydrangea motif, but I can see them fitting well into it, it's something I came up with when thinking of Sig/Doppel stories where she get's her redemption. Look at it this way:

-Sig and Arle are strongly associated with blue and unambiguous heroes, which connects them to the blue hydrangea.

-Strange Klug is the evil remains of the demon within the book taking over Klug's body and a clear cut antagonist, connecting him to the red hydrangea.

-Sig also qualifies for the red, due to his demon heritage. Not only are demons generally depicted as evil, but as seen in Sig's Secret, said heritage can be dangerous when Sig's control over himself get's surpressed and the demon parts take over. With that said Sig by his own will is a good guy all the way, similary there is also Akuma, who is a protector of Primp, showing that being a demon doesn't make you bad by default. It's worth noting that even the backstory calls the remains of the demon that created Sig's ancestor the ''neutral parts'' as opposed to the good ones.

-Doppel is interesting, she obviously qualifies for red, due to her antagonist role in YON however, she also fits for red in two particular ways, depending on how you want to interpret her character:

If one portrays her as evil all the way then she cements herself for red as a clear cut villain like SK.

If one believes in a redeemable Doppel then she'd still be red, however just like how Sig and Akuma choose to be good, despite demons being usually called evil, Doppel can defy the usually malicious ways doppelgangers are expected to act upon, whether or not she does so or remains a villain is her decision.

In other words:
Arle is pure blue and good.
Sig is blue and red and stands as a middle ground, showing that red isn't inherently bad.
Doppel is red, but can either turn around to become an anti-hero at worst or become one of Puyo's most dangerous villains.
Strange Klug is pure red and evil.

Not sure if all of this makes perfect sense, but that's how I like to look at the blue/red/hydrangea motif and how the Arles could fit into, just something to think about.

I don't know why, but something about him here feels....intimidating. Moreso than his appearance in Madou 2...

Maybe it's the sharp eyes and messy spiky hair...

It really is the facial features and how sharply they are drawn, it makes him look a lot more intense then usual, in fact the eyes very much remind me of PC98 MM2 Schezo.

 

[puyokid]

It's been Sig and Strange Klug's strongest attacks since they first appeared and one of the biggest clues to their connection, it's just that it's the only time the motif is ever used.

As for Arle/Doppel, they aren't directly connected to the hydrangea motif, but I can see them fitting well into it, it's something I came up with when thinking of Sig/Doppel stories where she get's her redemption. Look at it this way:

-Sig and Arle are strongly associated with blue and unambiguous heroes, which connects them to the blue hydrangea.

-Strange Klug is the evil remains of the demon within the book taking over Klug's body and a clear cut antagonist, connecting him to the red hydrangea.

-Sig also qualifies for the red, due to his demon heritage. Not only are demons generally depicted as evil, but as seen in Sig's Secret, said heritage can be dangerous when Sig's control over himself get's surpressed and the demon parts take over. With that said Sig by his own will is a good guy all the way, similary there is also Akuma, who is a protector of Primp, showing that being a demon doesn't make you bad by default. It's worth noting that even the backstory calls the remains of the demon that created Sig's ancestor the ''neutral parts'' as opposed to the good ones.

-Doppel is interesting, she obviously qualifies for red, due to her antagonist role in YON however, she also fits for red in two particular ways, depending on how you want to interpret her character:

If one portrays her as evil all the way then she cements herself for red as a clear cut villain like SK.

If one believes in a redeemable Doppel then she'd still be red, however just like how Sig and Akuma choose to be good, despite demons being usually called evil, Doppel can defy the usually malicious ways doppelgangers are expected to act upon, whether or not she does so or remains a villain is her decision.

In other words:
Arle is pure blue and good.
Sig is blue and red and stands as a middle ground, showing that red isn't inherently bad.
Doppel is red, but can either turn around to become an anti-hero at worst or become one of Puyo's most dangerous villains.
Strange Klug is pure red and evil.

Not sure if all of this makes perfect sense, but that's how I like to look at the blue/red/hydrangea motif and how the Arles could fit into, just something to think about.

Wow.....you REALLY gave me a lot to think about here...

Honestly, after seeing a number of RP blogs, as well as Fever 2's Library, I'm starting to think that S.K. isn't necessarily EVIL (though attempting to kill Sig to regain its full power is a HUGE red flag in and of itself). I mean, what exactly is his deal? As far as I know, he never seemed to do anything evil aside from the whole thing with Sig. No world-conquering motive, nothing.

Honestly, I'd put him in the same boat as Doppel. We don't really have a solid idea on their endgames, aside from wanting to kill their other half for personal reasons...

It really is the facial features and how sharply they are drawn, it makes him look a lot more intense then usual, in fact the eyes very much remind me of PC98 MM2 Schezo.

OK, that's probably it. Call me crazy, but...I'd like to see Schezo this fearsome in the Puyo games. I don't know what it is, but I LOVE this look for him here. Like, it'd probably put a chill down EVERYONE'S spines. If they thought he was scary before...

BTW, look at what I came across.

I don't know about you, but this is sending a little chill up my spine....sets the tone of the climax to Sig's Secret LEAGUES better than the actual artwork in the LN does.

 

[warelander]

Wow.....you REALLY gave me a lot to think about here...

Honestly, after seeing a number of RP blogs, as well as Fever 2's Library, I'm starting to think that S.K. isn't necessarily EVIL (though attempting to kill Sig to regain its full power is a HUGE red flag in and of itself). I mean, what exactly is his deal? As far as I know, he never seemed to do anything evil aside from the whole thing with Sig. No world-conquering motive, nothing.

Honestly, I'd put him in the same boat as Doppel. We don't really have a solid idea on their endgames, aside from wanting to kill their other half for personal reasons...

I am by no means opposed to the idea that SK could reform as well, it's just with how few notable appearences he has made it's hard to say anything for sure.

The library bits do mention that it was merely the evil parts of the demon that were sealed away, how much that effects the demon and what he was like when he was alive isn't clear, nor do we know about his goals after remaking his old self.

The only game besides Fever 2 to say a bit more about him is Quest, which does describe him to be very angry underneath his calm outside appearence and unlike Doppel who's quotes show her to be actually rather amiable to people that aren't Arle (though she still likes to pose as her) SK always makes it very clear that he is just focused on his own goals and actively attempts to hunt Sig down.

We haven't seen nearly enough of him to rule out the possibility of him changing for the better and I do see the appeal of the concept, I'm just going with the evil interpretation until the games themselves give me counter evidence to it.

I don't know about you, but this is sending a little chill up my spine....sets the tone of the climax to Sig's Secret LEAGUES better than the actual artwork in the LN does.

I did see those on Twitter and they do look great and very climactic, like the situation really became incredibly dire, at the same time it also reminds me how much of a letdown the climax in the Light Novel was, with how quickly and easy it was done away with, Arle and Ringo getting tossed away right beforehand (and being horribly used over the entire novel) and so on, but I already ranted about that more then enough times.

 

[puyokid]

I am by no means opposed to the idea that SK could reform as well, it's just with how few notable appearances he has made it's hard to say anything for sure.

The library bits do mention that it was merely the evil parts of the demon that were sealed away, how much that effects the demon and what he was like when he was alive isn't clear, nor do we know about his goals after remaking his old self.

The only game besides Fever 2 to say a bit more about him is Quest, which does describe him to be very angry underneath his calm outside appearance and unlike Doppel who's quotes show her to be actually rather amiable to people that aren't Arle (though she still likes to pose as her) SK always makes it very clear that he is just focused on his own goals and actively attempts to hunt Sig down.

We haven't seen nearly enough of him to rule out the possibility of him changing for the better and I do see the appeal of the concept, I'm just going with the evil interpretation until the games themselves give me counter evidence to it.

Oh, I get what you're saying. Heck, if I'm being honest, I feel like it'd be more interesting to have S.K. STAY as a full-fledged villain, but at the same time, I think the concept of him not really being inherently evil would be interesting.

All things considered, I'm also going with the idea that he's (for the most part) evil, until SEGA says otherwise.

IMO, I still feel that Puyo Puyo has more than enough potential to have a more "all-encompassing" villain that isn't S.K. It really feels like S.K. just isn't the guy for that kind of thing. As we know, Satan...doesn't exactly fit that bill anymore with his whole "hopeless romantic" shtick these days, let alone that he seems to have retired overall from the evil overlord thing since after the first Puyo game, and Ecolo's practically the equivalent of an VERY immature kid with cosmic powers.

I did see those on Twitter and they do look great and very climactic, like the situation really became incredibly dire, at the same time it also reminds me how much of a letdown the climax in the Light Novel was, with how quickly and easy it was done away with, Arle and Ringo getting tossed away right beforehand (and being horribly used over the entire novel) and so on, but I already ranted about that more then enough times.

Yeah, I figured you'd feel this way. As I've already said, the art used in this piece made the whole thing seem way more unsettling than it did in the LN. Still though, I wonder if we'll ever get a game that focuses on Sig losing control of himself. If we never get my "Strange Witch"/"Puyo Puyo: Tower of the Magician" game, then this would be the next best thing, IMO.

I mean, Fever 2 sort of (?) gave us some sort of insight as to what would happen to him, I guess...

Also, I have a question for you. With all this Puyo craze going on recently, what with the localization of PPT and now Sonic Mania's special little secret, as well as Sonic Forces' pre-order bonus equipment, what do you think about Puyo Puyo's future now?

 

[warelander]

IMO, I still feel that Puyo Puyo has more than enough potential to have a more "all-encompassing" villain that isn't S.K. It really feels like S.K. just isn't the guy for that kind of thing. As we know, Satan...doesn't exactly fit that bill anymore with his whole "hopeless romantic" shtick these days, let alone that he seems to have retired overall from the evil overlord thing since after the first Puyo game, and Ecolo's practically the equivalent of an VERY immature kid with cosmic powers.

The only question is what kind of villain that would be, what goals he would have and how he'd anagonize the cast actually make that three questions. The thing about Puyo is that even the Madou games always had new antagonists and as you said Ecolo and Satan don't really fit into the position.

I'm all for the idea, it's just surprising how little history the franchise has in that regard.

Yeah, I figured you'd feel this way. As I've already said, the art used in this piece made the whole thing seem way more unsettling than it did in the LN. Still though, I wonder if we'll ever get a game that focuses on Sig losing control of himself. If we never get my "Strange Witch"/"Puyo Puyo: Tower of the Magician" game, then this would be the next best thing, IMO.

Well, my opinions on the Light Novel(s) aside if this was official art for something upcoming I'd be on the edge of my seat to find out more about it, because it is really fantastic.

Also, I have a question for you. With all this Puyo craze going on recently, what with the localization of PPT and now Sonic Mania's special little secret, as well as Sonic Forces' pre-order bonus equipment, what do you think about Puyo Puyo's future now?

I have been fairly optimistic about it since western PPT proved itself to be a success and the positive reactions towards the boss in Mania (even if it was mostly due to it being a very clever Mean Bean throwback) should be of further proof to SEGA that the west can appreciate Puyo. Really, all SEGA needs to do is keep at it with western Puyo exposure and strike the iron while it's hot, ideally in the form of a western Chronicle release next year.

Also, look at these:

(I also saw some sketches with them a while ago, need to look for them again)

So now we can also add Dalida and Grifo to the ever growing list, launcher of a thousand ships indeed.

 

[puyokid]

The only question is what kind of villain that would be, what goals he would have and how he'd antagonize the cast actually make that three questions. The thing about Puyo is that even the Madou games always had new antagonists and as you said Ecolo and Satan don't really fit into the position.

I'm all for the idea, it's just surprising how little history the franchise has in that regard.

Yeah, I'm sure SEGA could make something work. Honestly, one of two options are coming to my mind right now. Please tell me what you think, by the way.

1. SEGA could pretty much make their own villain. Maybe said villain would be aware of the dormant powers that the Puyos possess, which include (but are not limited to) powering up attacks that would normally be quite ineffective (Maguro's kendama tricks, for example) and INTER-DIMENSIONAL TRAVEL. After seeing how the ENTIRE cast uses them for (more often than not) trivial reasons, said villain decides to harness their powers for their own personal gain, deciding that they'll put them to good use...taking over the world, and then spread their influence to ALL dimensions (via the Puyos' power to grant a Puyo popper inter-dimensional travel).

2. The other idea I had was that a villain who was equal (or at the very least, VERY close to) in power to Satan, believes that THEY deserve to rule over Puyo Hell. As a result, the villain would constantly be in a power struggle with Satan to gain ownership of Puyo Hell. Honestly, the best comparison I've got for this is...well, have you ever watched Spongebob Squarepants, and you've seen the on-going rivalry Mr. Krabs and Plankton? Yeah, this is essentially the Puyo Puyo equivalent of THAT.

Normally, I'd just say the Count (from Madou A.R.S.) would be said villain, but as you (and a few others) have already informed me, any Madou-era characters who did NOT appear in a Compile-developed Puyo game in some way, shape, or form prior to SEGA's FULL purchase of the series in 2001, has NO chance of appearing in any SEGA-developed Puyo games, thus the Count would be out of the running.

This being said, nothing's stopping SEGA from making their own villain who could take the Count's role from he Madou games, right? At the risk of patting myself on the back too much here, I feel that if SEGA really went all-out, either of my ideas could REALLY work even better than I described, honestly.

Well, my opinions on the Light Novel(s) aside, if this was official art for something upcoming I'd be on the edge of my seat to find out more about it, because it is really fantastic.

Same here! Like, the art really adds some REAL tension, doesn't it? Still, what worries me is that I bet SEGA would just make things fall somewhat flat like it did in the actual Sig's Secret LN. False adverting at its finest, everyone!

I have been fairly optimistic about it since western PPT proved itself to be a success and the positive reactions towards the boss in Mania (even if it was mostly due to it being a very clever Mean Bean throwback) should be of further proof to SEGA that the west can appreciate Puyo. Really, all SEGA needs to do is keep at it with western Puyo exposure and strike the iron while it's hot, ideally in the form of a western Chronicle release next year.

Yeah, I agree. ESPECIALLY on the whole western Puyo Chronicles release. Funny thing is, that game would encompass EVERYTHING about the series up to the series' 25th anniversary (which Chronicles is). Including (but not limited to) having the option to play all Puyo rules in Battle mode (bar Yo~n's rules), and even then, Yo~n's rules are somewhat used in the RPG mode via pseudo-Super Moves. Not to mention the RPG mode in the first place.

Also, look at these:

(I also saw some sketches with them a while ago, need to look for them again)

So now we can also add Dalida and Grifo to the ever growing list, launcher of a thousand ships indeed.

Even the (somewhat obscure) girls want him. Sig, you adorable (and lucky) little bug-lover, you.

Speaking of which, I wanted to show you something I was admittedly a bit surprised to come across. Honestly, I'm more surprised because this pairing seems to be rarely brought up.

I'm not sure what it is, but something about Schezo x Draco is...I really don't know. It's not bad or anything, or it's not like they shouldn't be paired up (I rather like the pairing), but...

 

[warelander]

2. The other idea I had was that a villain who was equal (or at the very least, VERY close to) in power to Satan, believes that THEY deserve to rule over Puyo Hell. As a result, the villain would constantly be in a power struggle with Satan to gain ownership of Puyo Hell. Honestly, the best comparison I've got for this is...well, have you ever watched Spongebob Squarepants, and you've seen the on-going rivalry Mr. Krabs and Plankton? Yeah, this is essentially the Puyo Puyo equivalent of THAT.

Yeah I know what you mean, though it reminds me more of Schezo's motifs in the first arcade game, either way I'm unsure what I'd want out of such a villain, I'd have to think more about it.

Still, what worries me is that I bet SEGA would just make things fall somewhat flat like it did in the actual Sig's Secret LN. False adverting at its finest, everyone!

Eh, I dunno, I honestly have enough faith in SEGA to think that they could have done it better, could just be my general dislike for the Light Novels speaking, but the general style of the Light Novels is different from the games and I do dig some of it:

I do love the references they include here and there, like the cameo of Sig's adult form in the second one or Lemres' staff turning into his broom from Fever 2/15th/7 in the third one and I do like some of the characterizations, like Schezo in general, Sig was handled quite nicely in Sig's Secret, as were Klug and Raffine.

Thing is I really don't like how everything is told from Amitie's perspective, since it leads into a lot of the era seperation problems that I mentioned before (especally noticable in the second one), few characters really get any focus, even Ringo and Arle feel underused and simplified to just being Amitie's friends and nothing more sometimes and some of the characterizaion at times bothers me, the biggest example being how Arle acts around Sig.

Their dynamic may not get the most focus in the games, but they are shown to be good friends that look out for each other, where as in the Light Novels they not only get their first (and so far only) negative moment (which is the only time they directly interact in the novels, I might add), but she seemingly doesn't give a toss when something is going on with Sig and lets him walk into his incoming demise, in other words the novels completely shit on a dynamic that I really enjoy and for what purpose? I'd really love an answer for that one.

...Sorry, I couldn't help it.

Speaking of which, I wanted to show you something I was admittedly a bit surprised to come across. Honestly, I'm more surprised because this pairing seems to be rarely brought up.

I have seen it around on a few occasions, but there are a number pairings that surprise me in how rare they are, Ringo/T being the biggest example, I swear the western fandom likes it more then the japanese one.

I'm not sure what it is, but something about Schezo x Draco is...I really don't know. It's not bad or anything, or it's not like they shouldn't be paired up (I rather like the pairing), but...

Something about it that bothers you?

 

[warelander]

I forgot to mention it, but I got curious how the characters would rank if you counted all their alts together and that's the results I got :

Arle 13

Ringo 11

Amitie 10

Sig 9

Klug/Schezo 7

Feli/Raffine/Witch 6

Draco/Rider/Rulue/Satan 5

Lagnus/Lemres/Risukuma/Salde 4

Ecolo/Harpy/Maguro/Accord
Seriri 3

Carbuncle/Incubus/Suketoudara 2

Sasoriman/Scylla/Kikimora
Skeleton-T/Jan/Otomo/Ally
Dongurigaeru/Panotty/Chico
Zoh Daimaoh/Strange Klug/Popoi
Minotauros/Yu&Rei 1

Some would count Doppelganger Arle, Strange Klug and Black Kikimora as alts by proxy, due to them sharing names with their normal counterparts, I didn't do that, I did however count Dark Arle, since she really is just her, simply in a mind controlled state.

It's hard to say what factors go into some characters getting a special amount of attention, however I do think that Harpy, Seriri and Lagnus could be an example of SEGA having a particular interest in them.

To elaborate prior to the release of Chronicle these three were the only Compile made characters who didn't show up in mainstream titles at the time, but still had more then one alt and wouldn't you know it: those exact three made a return in Chronicle. After a series of Chronicle based alts Lagnus would be the first of the three to get yet another one and notably also showed up in a story quest starring Ally that came to be before Chronicle was released, incidentally he is also the only one of the three to be a mandatory party member in that game, meaning he get's by far the most screentime out of the trio.

Could just be a curious series of coincidences, but I dunno...it seems very deliberate.

 

[puyokid]

Yeah I know what you mean, though it reminds me more of Schezo's motifs in the first arcade game, either way I'm unsure what I'd want out of such a villain, I'd have to think more about it.

I take it that you also don't have too much of an opinion on my first idea of the hypothetical villain harnessing the power of the Puyos to take over the world, followed by the infinite dimensions? I'm not saying you HAVE to reply to that, I was just curious is all.

Oh, I dunno. I honestly have enough faith in SEGA to think that they could have done it better, could just be my general dislike for the Light Novels speaking, but the general style of the Light Novels is different from the games and I do dig some of it:

I do love the references they include here and there, like the cameo of Sig's adult form in the second one or Lemres' staff turning into his broom from Fever 2/15th/7 in the third one and I do like some of the characterizations, like Schezo in general, Sig was handled quite nicely in Sig's Secret, as were Klug and Raffine.

You know, you have a point there. Honestly, I feel like I was being too harsh on the Light Novels earlier today. If I'm being honest, I actually DO enjoy them to some extent. That being said, I also have some faith that SEGA could have done them better than what we usually end up getting.

I have to admit the various references sprinkled throughout the LNs are pretty neat, not to mention the characterization is (for the most part) pretty spot-on. BTW, where exactly was Sig's adult form from PP7 referenced? I feel like I might have missed that...

Thing is, I really don't like how everything is told from Amitie's perspective, since it leads into a lot of the era separation problems that I mentioned before (especially noticeable in the second one), few characters really get any focus, even Ringo and Arle feel underused and simplified to just being Amitie's friends and nothing more sometimes and some of the characterization at times bothers me, the biggest example being how Arle acts around Sig.

Their dynamic may not get the most focus in the games, but they are shown to be good friends that look out for each other, where as in the Light Novels they not only get their first (and so far only) negative moment (which is the only time they directly interact in the novels, I might add), but she seemingly doesn't give a toss when something is going on with Sig and lets him walk into his incoming demise, in other words the novels completely shit on a dynamic that I really enjoy and for what purpose? I'd really love an answer for that one.

...Sorry, I couldn't help it.

Actually, I should thank you. I think you just brought up one of the reasons (if not the PRIMARY reason) just WHY I'm not a HUGE fan of the LNs. The fact that they're being narrated from a first-person perspective by Amitie...and Amitie alone.

Let me clarify, I don't hate or even dislike Amitie. Not even in the slightest, as she's one of my favorite characters. But it bugs me how the LNs use her like that, and it actually contributes to the era separation that was an issue in 20th Anniversary. Like you said, Arle and Ringo don't get enough focus to the point where it feels like they're nothing more than JUST Amitie's friends, when that's not ALL they are. I feel that maybe if they're going to do a whole "first-person" thing here, it should at least be told from ALL 3 girls' eyes. Heck, even if it was just ONE 'A' Trio member, if you want my honest opinion, I feel that RINGO should have been who SEGA gave the "first-person" thing to. Honestly, I feel like SHE would have been the more logical choice to give that role to.

I have seen it around on a few occasions, but there are a number pairings that surprise me in how rare they are, Ringo/T being the biggest example, I swear the western fandom likes it more then the Japanese one.

Oh, really? Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places then...

Also, trust me, you are NOT wrong about Ringo/Tee. If anything, it feels like Japan is more partial to Ringo/Maguro or Ringo/Ecolo, especially after 20th's release. Heck, there's even been (I kid you not) Ringo/Risukuma. **Though to be fair, PPT IS the West's first (TRUE) MAJOR exposure to the series (with the ACTUAL CAST OF THE SERIES INTACT, I might add)**. This being said, Maguro, Ecolo, and Risukuma (all of whom she's commonly paired with) didn't interact with her THAT much in that game as much as they did in 20th, but Tee did. So, you know...

**I'd say Puyo Puyo Fever was the first, but...well, we all know how THAT went in terms of promotion...**

Something about it that bothers you?

No, no. Actually, it's not that it bothers me. Honestly, I think I was just surprised that despite Schezo and Draco being MAJOR characters in the series, I've never come across Schezo x Draco fanart until now, yet I'm more likely to see Schezo x SERIRI fanart (despite Seriri herself being a (minor) recurring character). In other words, Schezo x Draco just never came to my mind until this picture.

I forgot to mention it, but I got curious how the characters would rank if you counted all their alts together and that's the results I got :

Arle 13

Ringo 11

Amitie 10

Sig 9

Klug/Schezo 7

Feli/Raffine/Witch 6

Draco/Rider/Rulue/Satan 5

Lagnus/Lemres/Risukuma/Salde 4

Ecolo/Harpy/Maguro/Accord
Seriri 3

Carbuncle/Incubus/Suketoudara 2

Sasoriman/Scylla/Kikimora
Skeleton-T/Jan/Otomo/Ally
Dongurigaeru/Panotty/Chico
Zoh Daimaoh/Strange Klug/Popoi
Minotauros/Yu&Rei 1

Some would count Doppelganger Arle, Strange Klug and Black Kikimora as alts by proxy, due to them sharing names with their normal counterparts, I didn't do that, I did however count Dark Arle, since she really is just her, simply in a mind controlled state.

It's hard to say what factors go into some characters getting a special amount of attention, however I do think that Harpy, Seriri and Lagnus could be an example of SEGA having a particular interest in them.

To elaborate prior to the release of Chronicle these three were the only Compile made characters who didn't show up in mainstream titles at the time, but still had more then one alt and wouldn't you know it: those exact three made a return in Chronicle. After a series of Chronicle based alts Lagnus would be the first of the three to get yet another one and notably also showed up in a story quest starring Ally that came to be before Chronicle was released, incidentally he is also the only one of the three to be a mandatory party member in that game, meaning he gets by far the most screentime out of the trio.

Could just be a curious series of coincidences, but I dunno...it seems very deliberate.

I should mention that I'm actually quite happy that you DIDN'T count Doppelganger Arle, Strange Klug, and Black Kikimora as alts. I mean, they've been defined as their own characters YEARS before Puyo Quest was even a thought, so you know.

BTW, I have to agree with you that there may be more to SEGA's usage of Lagnus, Seriri, and Harpy than what we see at first glance. I ESPECIALLY agree on Lagnus getting more "preferential treatment". Speaking of which, I didn't even know that Lagnus appeared in Ally's story quest that promoted Chronicles. VERY interesting indeed...

Personally, I feel that SEGA maybe even WANTS to add those 3 in even more games, but due to that ridiculous (unspoken) 24-character limit rule, they don't get to appear in much stuff. Obviously, I've already made my irritation for Lagnus not appearing whatsoever in PP7 clear by now, so I guess I don't really need to bring that up.

Hold on...now that I mention it, it just occurred to me...Harpy actually made an (NPC) guest appearance as early as PP7, but wasn't playable in 20th unlike Witch. To be fair, Witch is considered a more major player in the cast. Still, it makes you wonder if SEGA actually had plans for recurring characters like Harpy THAT early on...

 

[warelander]

I take it that you also don't have too much of an opinion on my first idea of the hypothetical villain harnessing the power of the Puyos to take over the world, followed by the infinite dimensions? I'm not saying you HAVE to reply to that, I was just curious is all.

Not really to be honest, it's not a bad idea, I just don't have much to say.

BTW, where exactly was Sig's adult form from PP7 referenced? I feel like I might have missed that...

It's when Sig first starts to grow, due to his wish.

Also, trust me, you are NOT wrong about Ringo/Tee. If anything, it feels like Japan is more partial to Ringo/Maguro or Ringo/Ecolo, especially after 20th's release. Heck, there's even been (I kid you not) Ringo/Risukuma. **Though to be fair, PPT IS the West's first (TRUE) MAJOR exposure to the series (with the ACTUAL CAST OF THE SERIES INTACT, I might add)**. This being said, Maguro, Ecolo, and Risukuma (all of whom she's commonly paired with) didn't interact with her THAT much in that game as much as they did in 20th, but Tee did. So, you know...

Even then I'm still surprised it get's this little attention, considering that both Ringo and T are very blatantly implied to have feelings for the other, in a way that's very rare in the Puyo series, let alone the feeling being mutual between both parties. Though to be honest, on a personal level when I first entered the Puyo fandom I was honestly surprised and a little bumfuzzled at what pairings where the most common ones, like I do get some, like Schezo/Witch (which I also like) or Amitie/Sig (which I used to like) but many others left me with a feeling of ''huh, didn't expect that''.

Not to bad mouth those pairings (even ones I don't like), but I'm just saying I didn't expect those to be wide spread.

, yet I'm more likely to see Schezo x SERIRI fanart (despite Seriri herself being a (minor) recurring character).

Well she and Schezo did get some interaction in Waku Puyo Dungeon and Tower of Magician, I don't know the context since I never found any translations, but it might come from there.

Personally, I feel that SEGA maybe even WANTS to add those 3 in even more games, but due to that ridiculous (unspoken) 24-character limit rule, they don't get to appear in much stuff.

I'm not sure if there's a rule behind it, but if Chronicle with it's Skill Battle/ RPG exclusive characters is any indication then the serie might slowly break from the 24 character limit, at any rate it certainly seems like they clearly want to use certain characters and if Quest is any indication they certainly have interest to do take advantage of their entire humangous library of characters or at least most of them, even if some are higher on the list then other, Lagnus being the biggest example.

 

[warelander]

Not really to be honest, it's not a bad idea, I just don't have much to say.

Okay, that wording was horribly chosen and rude on my end, you clearly put thought into your idea and I said it's really not bad, I'm just not sure what to say since I'm not even in the clear of what my own desires for such a villain would be.

 

[puyokid]

It's when Sig first starts to grow, due to his wish

Ah, thank you for this!

Even then I'm still surprised it get's this little attention, considering that both Ringo and T are very blatantly implied to have feelings for the other, in a way that's very rare in the Puyo series, let alone the feeling being mutual between both parties. Though to be honest, on a personal level when I first entered the Puyo fandom I was honestly surprised and a little bumfuzzled at what pairings where the most common ones, like I do get some, like Schezo/Witch (which I also like) or Amitie/Sig (which I used to like) but many others left me with a feeling of ''huh, didn't expect that''.

Not to bad mouth those pairings (even ones I don't like), but I'm just saying I didn't expect those to be wide spread.

I know, right? Personally, while I admittedly ship Ringo/Maguro ever so slightly more than Ringo/Tee, I'm pretty surprised at how Japan isn't all that big on the idea of Ringo/Tee, considering (like you said) they're probably the first pairing (in canon, no less) to have possible MUTUAL feelings for each other...and those feelings are greatly implied to be positive.

Granted, with PPT's Western localization, I was admittedly a little surprised to see that Amitie having feelings for Sig were apparently a canon subject (I shipped it before I found out it was an actual thing in the games themselves), so it shows what I know about the series.

Also, to be fair...well, Japan's had EVERY game in the series (Puyo AND Madou), so I guess it makes sense that some pairings would make way more sense to them than us. Heck, Schezo/Witch even made more sense to me AFTER I found out about TotM (which Japan had since 1997), so...

Well she and Schezo did get some interaction in Waku Puyo Dungeon and Tower of Magician, I don't know the context since I never found any translations, but it might come from there.

Referring to my post right above, I guess the same quote can also be applied to Schezo/Seriri as well.

I'm not sure if there's a rule behind it, but if Chronicle with it's Skill Battle/ RPG exclusive characters is any indication then the series might slowly break from the 24 character limit, at any rate it certainly seems like they clearly want to use certain characters and if Quest is any indication they certainly have interest to do take advantage of their entire humongous library of characters or at least most of them, even if some are higher on the list then other, Lagnus being the biggest example.

This is something that I'm quite glad about. I mean the whole 'SEGA slowly, but surely, breaking away from the 24 character limit' thing. This being said, I hope this is a sign that SEGA intends to keep to the idea of utilizing their MASSIVE library of characters. Honestly, I get the feeling that SEGA seems to REALLY like Lagnus. Like, I get the vibe that they want to stick him in all kinds of Puyo media, they just can't do it due to that (stupid) 24 character limit rule.

Okay, that wording was horribly chosen and rude on my end, you clearly put thought into your idea and I said it's really not bad, I'm just not sure what to say since I'm not even in the clear of what my own desires for such a villain would be.

Oh, OK.

Honestly, I didn't want to say anything and be 'THAT guy', but I'll admit that I was admittedly a bit downtrodden after your 'simple' response from before.

Again, I don't want to be needy, but I have to admit that I really did try to put some thought into those ideas, so they don't end up being what Satan and Ecolo more or less became these days.

I guess Rafisol had potential, but it feels like Doppel. Arle would have worked better since Compile seems to have had a whole character development arc planned for her.

 

[warelander]

Also, to be fair...well, Japan's had EVERY game in the series (Puyo AND Madou), so I guess it makes sense that some pairings would make way more sense to them than us. Heck, Schezo/Witch even made more sense to me AFTER I found out about TotM (which Japan had since 1997), so...

While I'm sure it helped in some cases, but there is too much of an overlap of what the most commomly found pairings are, for me to think that that's a major influence.

Either way even with my initial surpise, it doesn't really matter to me which ones are the most common, I just pick the choices I like and am happy with them and thanks to the series' nature of the lack of official couples making everything fair game, I sure get a lot of mileage out of it.

Referring to my post right above, I guess the same quote can also be applied to Schezo/Seriri as well.

I was actually talking about Schezo/Seriri, though I guess you could apply it to Draco as well.

Oh, OK.

Honestly, I didn't want to say anything and be 'THAT guy', but I'll admit that I was admittedly a bit downtrodden after your 'simple' response from before.

Again, I don't want to be needy, but I have to admit that I really did try to put some thought into those ideas, so they don't end up being what Satan and Ecolo more or less became these days.

Oh god, I was a massive jackass then, my apologies.

Don't get me wrong, I can see that you put much thought into it, I just don't have too much of an opinion on the subject since I never really though much about it, I'm just extremely boring to talk to when it comes to that.

 

[warelander]

Also, by the by, I made a collage of all the alts for the recurring characters, to give more of an visual example on how the characters stack up :

Spoiler: huuuuge

When you see it like this it becomes especially appearent just how high Lagnus ranks and Incubus is also in an interesting situation, being a Compile-era character that hasn't shown up in a mainstram title since Minna and yet has two alts, perhaps he might go the way of Harpy, Seriri and Lagnus?

 

[puyokid]

While I'm sure it helped in some cases, but there is too much of an overlap of what the most commonly found pairings are, for me to think that that's a major influence.

Either way, even with my initial surprise, it doesn't really matter to me which ones are the most common, I just pick the choices I like and am happy with them and thanks to the series' nature of the lack of official couples making everything fair game, I sure get a lot of mileage out of it.

Honestly, this is one of the reasons that I'm actually OK with the whole 'no canon ships' thing. With the sole exception of Onion Pixy and Onionette (the ONLY on-screen canon couple in BOTH the Puyo and Madou games), I also like that one can mix-and-match a lot of the cast and things would be fair game like you said.

I was actually talking about Schezo/Seriri, though I guess you could apply it to Draco as well.

Oh! I see. My mistake.

Oh god, I was a massive jackass then, my apologies.

Don't get me wrong, I can see that you put much thought into it, I just don't have too much of an opinion on the subject since I never really though much about it, I'm just extremely boring to talk to when it comes to that.

Hey, don't feel bad. Like I said, I was even hoping that I wasn't coming off as smug ("pulling a Klug") due to my idea. I was even worried that I was coming off as smug over it. I felt like there were some things I could have ironed out on them.

Also, by the by, I made a collage of all the alts for the recurring characters, to give more of an visual example on how the characters stack up :

Spoiler: huuuuge

View attachment 4939

When you see it like this it becomes especially apparent just how high Lagnus ranks and Incubus is also in an interesting situation, being a Compile-era character that hasn't shown up in a mainstream title since Minna and yet has two alts, perhaps he might go the way of Harpy, Seriri and Lagnus?

Thanks for the visual cue there! Hopefully, aside from Lagnus, Seriri, and Harpy (all of whom I hope SEGA lets stick around the cast this time around) I really hope that Incubus AND Succubus (among MANY other Madou-era characters) return for a mainstream Puyo game. (Yes, I know I'm pipe-dreaming here in terms of Succubus, but please let me dream...please? After Black Kikimora joined Puyo Quest, I'll admit that I'm being more hopeful than I probably should).

 

[warelander]

Hey, don't feel bad. Like I said, I was even hoping that I wasn't coming off as smug ("pulling a Klug") due to my idea. I was even worried that I was coming off as smug over it. I felt like there were some things I could have ironed out on them.

I didn't feel like you were smug about it, it's just that I can't help but want to punch myself when I accidentally do stuff like that, I mean it's over and done now and I'd like to keep it at that, I just really didn't mean to be an ass and even caught myself when re-reading the post, but yah know, let's just drop it.

Thanks for the visual cue there! Hopefully, aside from Lagnus, Seriri, and Harpy (all of whom I hope SEGA lets stick around the cast this time around) I really hope that Incubus AND Succubus (among MANY other Madou-era characters) return for a mainstream Puyo game. (Yes, I know I'm pipe-dreaming here in terms of Succubus, but please let me dream...please? After Black Kikimora joined Puyo Quest, I'll admit that I'm being more hopeful than I probably should).

Never rule anything out, the series has surprised me more then once with things I thought to be unlikely.

Also on the subject of alts, while making the collage it really struck me again how puzzling it is that Doppel still has no alt, there is even a Valkyrie alt for Dark Arle, despite that just being a mind controlled Arle (I like it, it's a nice design, but it's also a very odd choice), so what gives?

 

[puyokid]

I didn't feel like you were smug about it, it's just that I can't help but want to punch myself when I accidentally do stuff like that, I mean it's over and done now and I'd like to keep it at that, I just really didn't mean to be an ass and even caught myself when re-reading the post, but yah know, let's just drop it.

Well, you're right. We should drop it already.

Never rule anything out, the series has surprised me more than once with things I thought to be unlikely.

Well, you do have a point there. Heck, I'd go as far as to say that I never thought Black Kikimora would return to the series in ANY form especially LONG after the majority of the Madou-era Puyo cast had already been re-established in Puyo Quest.

Also, we shouldn't really rule out the whole "Madou-era Succubus and Quest Succubus might be one and the same" issue after the series' claims about the subject during its 25th anniversary.

Also on the subject of alts, while making the collage it really struck me again how puzzling it is that Doppel still has no alt, there is even a Valkyrie alt for Dark Arle, despite that just being a mind controlled Arle (I like it, it's a nice design, but it's also a very odd choice), so what gives?

You know, the same thing was on my mind last night. I would say Pierrot would count, but does SHE really count as an alt?

 

[warelander]

Also, we shouldn't really rule out the whole "Madou-era Succubus and Quest Succubus might be one and the same" issue after the series' claims about the subject during its 25th anniversary.

Well, the only official source that ever even implied anything on the matter suggests that they are the same, so we may as well roll with that, until there's another source that directly denies it.

I actually have a similar situation with Doppel, the one from YON/BOX/Quest is obviously always the same, however it's never directly said whether or not Warle for Mega Drive Madou 1 and the one from Final Test are the same or other seperate doppelgangers.

It would make a ton of sense for them to be all the same and almost everyone I have seen goes with that, it's just that the first appearences of Arle doppelgangers as generic mooks muddle the waters a bit, though to be honest I think it's best to take the mook appearences of Puyo charas as Madou mooks with a grain of salt, because some of it doesn't make sense in the context of the series at large, I mean Witch shows up in Schezo's ARS story, which means that she would have to be only a year younger then him, have the same kind of anti-aging stick going on and for some reason also got herself trapped in the capital of Rana, which I doubt to be the case, all of it.

You know, the same thing was on my mind last night. I would say Pierrot would count, but does SHE really count as an alt?

I was thing of that as well, though while Pierrot's inclusion is very similar to an alt, it's not quite the same, but you could call it a substitution.

At the end of the day it's great that she's in the game at all, but with how uncertain it is when we will see her in anything else it would just be nice to see her get some extra attention.

 

[puyokid]

Well, the only official source that ever even implied anything on the matter suggests that they are the same, so we may as well roll with that, until there's another source that directly denies it.

I wish I could speak Japanese or something. The current producer of the series (Mizuki Hosoyamada) has his own Twitter, and I'm pretty sure he takes questions. I think I've said this before, but I'm quite a bit surprised no one's bothered to ask him (or anyone who works on the current SEGA-era Puyo games) whether or not characters like Succubus or Lamia truly are are the same person as the Madou-era design.

I actually have a similar situation with Doppel, the one from YON/BOX/Quest is obviously always the same, however it's never directly said whether or not Warle for Mega Drive Madou 1 and the one from Final Test are the same or other separate doppelgangers.

Personally, I consider them ALL to be the Doppel. Arle we have today. Even if they're not ALL the same character, I definitely consider "Warle" and Final Exam Doppel to be one and the same. That is, if F.E. Doppel isn't just the lingering spirit of Arle's ancestor, Lilith like I've been hearing about lately.

It would make a ton of sense for them to be all the same and almost everyone I have seen goes with that, it's just that the first appearances of Arle doppelgangers as generic mooks muddle the waters a bit, though to be honest I think it's best to take the mook appearances of Puyo charas as Madou mooks with a grain of salt, because some of it doesn't make sense in the context of the series at large, I mean Witch shows up in Schezo's ARS story, which means that she would have to be only a year younger then him, have the same kind of anti-aging stick going on and for some reason also got herself trapped in the capital of Rana, which I doubt to be the case, all of it.

Yeeeaahh...the fact that Doppel's been seen as a mook on occasion is what throws a wrench into things for me as well. Also, WITCH appeared in SCHEZO'S story in Madou ARS?? Yeah, I'm taking these mook appearances with a grain of salt. Now, Succubus and Incubus I can understand, what with them being demons who barely look their actual age and all, but Witch appearing in Schezo's story is sort of where I'm going to have to draw the line. Heck, she's not even the only one with this issue. I'm pretty sure Suketoudara and Draco have these kind of appearances as well.

I mean, unless the enemies (with the exception of Rune Lord) were illusions or something.

I was thinking of that as well, though while Pierrot's inclusion is very similar to an alt, it's not quite the same, but you could call it a substitution.

Yeah, that'd be what I'd go with. Still, thinking about it now, I think it would actually be kind of neat to have Pierrot as an actual alt. for Doppel. Arle.

Actually, you know what would be even better? Doppel. Arle getting an alt. that references her Final Exam appearance. Basically, she'd wear purple armor rather than red armor, gain Arle's magic bo staff, and she'd have an overall more menacing demeanor and appearance. Well, maybe not menacing, but moreso sickeningly smug.

At the end of the day it's great that she's in the game at all, but with how uncertain it is when we will see her in anything else it would just be nice to see her get some extra attention.

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. I'm not going to lie, what with Rafisol's overall existence in the series, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't just a teensy-weensy bit worried about what this would mean for D. Arle in terms of the mainstream games' future.

BTW, speaking of Succubus earlier, I don't suppose you saw the fanart I posted earlier today/last night on Tumblr, did you? I don't mean to sound smug and/or needy or anything like that, but I kind of thought that post would pick up a bit more steam. If I could get a reblog or something, it'd be appreciated.

Oh, and the piece in question is this: