Super Smash Bros 4 and Wario; What We Know

King Hehehe

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It's a microgame series. Wario doesn't do a whole lot of action stuff in WarioWare. Honestly, Wario-Man is already pretty good representation; wacky, zany, fast-paced action in the form of a WarioWare-based persona.
 

ShyGuyXXL

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But what moves would WW Wario have? The current moveset wouldn't work as something to represent WW only the bike does.
There's the bike, the fart, the more goofy stuff like falling on his face or eating people, etc. They already made up so many moves I don't think they'd have trouble making more.
 

King Hehehe

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But then they still need to make up a few for the Wario Land version, since aside from Wario World attacks, he usually just has his shoulder bash, ground pound, power throw, and various transformations which may be hard to make attacks out of. I feel like Project M added all the essential Wario Land stuff while keeping his essential stuff from Brawl, which is why I will stand by that as the best version of Wario in the series (though I don't hate Brawl, it isn't as good as PM's version).
 

RWB

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I'm gonna have to adamantly disagree with you here. The only moves they outright replace are the spinning downwards headbutt for d-air, replacing it with his signature ground pound,
Wario's Brawl Dair is stupid fun to use. PM Dair isn't, at all. Sadly they nerfed it by removing the auto-cancel from Brawl., so now in 4 it's boring.

the backwards headbutt for b-air with a more functional and satisfying backwards punch,
Agreed.

the bike with the shoulder bash,
Horrendous change, his bike is his most varied AND interesting move.

Removing it alone is bad enough for me to put PM Wario below Brawl Wario. They should have put the shoulder charge in somewhere else.

the f-smash with a kick (due to the shoulder bash's presence already),
Funniest to use F-Smash in the game replaced by a really terrible looking and just as boring as Smash 4 F-Smash. Yeah, F that.

his butt bump b-throw (b-throw is now the Wild Swing-Ding, taken from his f-throw) with the Power Throw, and the laggy breakdance of disappointment that is his d-smash with his Earthshake Punch.
These two are a great change, though.

Except for the kick and the punch, both of which both look and function nicely for his "power" trait, all of these are things lifted directly from Wario Land and function as they do in those games, and none of what they replace really represented his appearances in WarioWare anyway besides the Wario Bike. The reason he doesn't have transformations is quite simply because he already functions perfectly, so it really isn't necessary to make him transform for specific attacks when his moves already reference the series plenty.
If they wanted to go Land, then go really Land. Don't just paint over the clearest- and best Ware reference in the game with a way lamer move from Land(I like the Shoulder Charge in and of itself, it's just much less fun than the bike ).


They took away his most fun moves to use and replaced them with boring stuff or not boring, but still less interesting stuff.

He's less fun AND he represent LESS of his franchise, PM Wario is not anywhere near Brawl Wario in any way.[/QUOTE]
 

King Hehehe

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Wario's Brawl Dair is stupid fun to use. PM Dair isn't, at all.
His Brawl dair is nice, I'll agree. I just like having a falling meteor attack. It loses its autocancel, but it has a lot of other utility in the punish game.
Horrendous change, his bike is his most varied AND interesting move.
Its merit as an attack is questionable, and it's really just useful because it gives him projectiles and a huge recovery. And I love those uses in Brawl, but I'm very willing to sacrifice that for the uses of the shoulder bash, which meshes very well with Wario's throws in PM. Again, I see your point. It offers a lot to Wario in Brawl. But I like PM's version better, since he already has a fine recovery, and his aerial mobility allows him to get his hits without the need for item-based projectiles that require spawning and destroying a bike to get.
really terrible looking and just as boring as Smash 4 F-Smash
It's pretty bland, I admit. I mostly just accept it because it's still a fantastic move in function. Great power and speed, and also pretty decent range by Wario standards.
I like the Shoulder Charge in and of itself, it's just much less fun than the bike
This is how I feel in reverse. Honestly, I think that's where our differences lie here; I agree that a lot of this stuff was alright, but I like his PM versions more.
 

RWB

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Its merit as an attack is questionable,
and it's really just useful because it gives him projectiles and a huge recovery.
It can kill if used off-stage pretty early and has a huge hitbox(It actually got buffed in that regard in Smash 4). It also gave him a very solid movement option(related to the projectile thing in Glide Tossing.

This is how I feel in reverse. Honestly, I think that's where our differences lie here; I agree that a lot of this stuff was alright, but I like his PM versions more.
Whereas in my case, they took out EVERY one of my favorite moves and replaced them with much less fun stuff. They kept most of his actually boring stuff, too! To be fair, I consider Smash 4 Wario to be as bad as PM Wario or worse, cause he lost most of these things too.
 

King Hehehe

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Glad we're on the same page about Smash 4. Remove all the good stuff from Brawl, and don't give us any compensation for it. Bah. I actually didn't consider using Wario Bike as an offstage kill move, but I suppose being that close to the blast zone would allow it to work, and being Wario he could still make it back. But yeah, I think I see where we disagree. You dislike the new versions of his previously-existing great moves, and I think they improve him despite what they sacrifice (though to be fair, I've explored his kit in PM quite a bit, whereas I have only ever had Wario as a secondary in Brawl), and I like how they connect with how Wario has more traditionally been represented. To each his own, I guess.

By the way, have you seen this? It's beautiful.
 

Superiorstar

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If you asked me they should change his f-smash back to what it was in brawl, but more like captain falcon's f-smash in terms of looks.
and change his D-air to his N-air. but that's just me, I really didn't look at anything but the first and last page.
But seriously I've recovered from the bottom blast line using his Wario bike, so I don't know why it should change.
I'm new here BTW.
 

Mario123311

Wario Fan Supreme
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Technically. He technically has his ground pound. ...except he doesn't pound the ground with it. He pounds a grabbed enemy. You can't use it the way you would in the game. The esthetic of the move is there but not the function. He technically also had his charge attack....except he didn't charge with it (unless you wanna count moving an inch as charging). Again, the esthetic is there but not the function.
But you know what? It DID have the function there when you were Wario-Man which was actually really friggin awesome. I loved that! View attachment 1037

But..... now he doesn't even have that anymore. View attachment 1038

I'll say this tho, overall, his moves in Brawl weren't completely awful. The biggest problem I have with it is the Waft. Mainly for the flanderization aspect. The other moves are ok and I do like playing with him.
If they made a few adjustments like replacing his dash attack with his charge attack (a functional version) and maybe adding the piledriver as a throw (and replacing the Waft with.... anything, really) then I would be totally ok with it.

A lot of my frustration comes from different places, not just his moveset. Like, why doesn't he have a victory animation inspired by Wario Land? Over the course of the series he does so many different poses, animations, quotes, etc. which would fit perfectly! ...but instead we get one where he smells his farts. :SAnnoyed: It's the mountains of missed potential that bothers me. It also doesn't help that there's no Wario Land stage, stage music, trophy, sticker, assist trophy to be found in the entire game.
And then when they finally added a Wario Land song in Smash 4...... it wasn't even a remix. View attachment 1039

Don't even get me started on the fact they removed a bunch of his outfits.
Rest in peace WL3 color scheme.


But don't let any of that bother you. If you think it's a great moveset, GOOD! I'm happy for you! Don't let the fact that I'm not happy with it bother you. At the end of the day it's just an opinion. Not everyone can have as much love for the Wario Land series as me. I would've liked it differently. So what? I'm just some guy.
It's not like my opinion could ever influence Sakurai's decisions. If he wants to make Wario all about farts in his game, who am I to argue? If he wants to remove a character's trademark move why should it bother anyone else?

I'll just go and play Project M. They have a great moveset for Wario. :SHappy: ...oh wait, I have a european Wii... View attachment 1042 Hahahahah. That's funny. :HAH: Hahahaha. Hahahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHA.View attachment 1040
Hint Hint: Dolphin exists. ;)

If you don't have a high spec PC though... Err... ^^;
 

Mario123311

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I know am PROBABLY beating a dead horse but removing the Shoulder Bash is like removing Mario's ability to even jump, removing Sonic's trademark speed or spinning or even Pac-Man's usual chomping... Yet there are apparently people out there who say "Well, Mario can't goomba stomp anything in Smash."


Um...

Have you not played Melee's Adventure Mode? ...The Subspace Emissary? ...SMASH RUN??

It's really a stupid "rebuttal" if you ask me. :V
 

gamtos

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What I find silly is people who actually cheer on Brawl and Project M for making terrible moves.
Large inflatable punches are F-smash material and can be seen in Wario World and Super Mario 64 DS. It's satisfying to land and fits perfectly with everything else he does.

The Wario Bike is 500% Wario. It's the reason why he's wearing a biker outfit. It's in Mario Kart Wii. It can be found in every single Wario Ware game. It's a projectile. It tanks through projectiles. It can be used as a kill move. It can be used to recover. It can be your shield, and it can be a shield breaker. It is life and death incarnate and it is glorious.
Even without the Wario Ware series, Wario riding badass vehicles is such a large part of the character. Removing the bike was such a dumb move that it completely convinced me "fans" really don't know better than developers most of the time.

No, my friends, we must not seek our long forgotten shoulder bash in such silly sacrifices. Wario zooms across the stage with a side-B shoulder bash? Ridiculous. Wario stands perfectly still and does his crappy Master Of Disguise shoulder bash? Get real.
One needs only look at the actual name of the move we long for, and all will become clear.



Yup, you read that right. Dash Attack. Wasn't it called a shoulder barge? A charge attack? Shoulder tackle? Nope. It's the Dash Attack. Speaking of Dash Attacks...



Why is everyone complaining about huge punches and badass motorcycles when this abomination hasn't been expunged from the earth yet in any of his three versions?

"But gamtos, it's guaranteed to trip people and can gimp near the ledge, it's a very technical move!"
I don't care if it could solve Rubix cubes, it's awful. Wario's dair already gimps in any case and does a better job of it, especially if you get the spike hitbox by autocancelling the move.

"But it's a reference to Super Mario 64 DS and/or his Mario Strikers victory animation"
It looks like he's falling on his face more than either of those moves and also who cares about those tiny things compared to Wario Land's signature move.

"But it's a reference to Mario's slide dash attack and solidifies Wario as a goofier Mario, just like his down-smash, down-air, up-smash and forward smash all seem to be parodies of Mario's moves."
Good. More reason to get rid of this move and acknowledge that Wario is much bigger than upside-down Mario.

"But giving him a shoulder bash as his dash attack would be overpowered!"

Moves aren't overpowered by concept but by implementation. And look:


Everyone's doing it, and Wario would look perfectly natural during it. I just don't understand why this stupid faceplant is in this game, and I never will respect it.
 

King Hehehe

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Dash attacks can be powerful. We see it all the time, even in the case of shoulder charges such as Samus'. I'd be quite content if they just gave him something like a 14% dash attack with good knockback at a standard angle. It'd kill early enough, it'd be able to tech chase (just not continue them like the current one), and most of all, it'd depict his brute-strength character trait in an elegant way that remains true to his roots. It'd probably be a slight nerf, admittedly, but I'd still like it more.
 

gamtos

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14% I feel is a bit much. It'd be stronger than Bowser's, as strong as Ganondorf's sweetspot and Link's tipper dash.

Considering Link's move is ridiculously strong but hard to land, and Ganondorf is too slow for dash attack to be a great option, I think something more like 11-12% on sweetspot and 9% sourspot would be more realistic.
 

King Hehehe

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Fair. I was mostly thinking of strong tilts and aerials in terms of damage output on that value. 12% sweetspot and about 9% sour is fair. Maybe even slightly stronger at 13% for a sweetspot, but its frame data would probably be probably good enough.
 
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