Super Smash Bros 4 and Wario; What We Know

Kyon said:
No, like Wario is just some sort of evil Mario, Mario uses his arms to smash attack, not his shoulder. So Wario should copy Mario while making it new.

So use a back arm.
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So you basically want him to go backwards.
Wario managed to go from an evil twin trope to a unique character with his own identity, personality, abilities and aspirations... and you want him to just be "evil Mario" again?

Wow...

That's like wanting Luigi to just be a color swap of Mario again.
 
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ShyGuyXXL said:
That's like wanting Luigi to just be a color swap of Mario again.
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Basically, that's how I see this move anyway. Just sort of coping the hero of heroes and mixing his own style into the mix. I could never see Mario using his Back fist for anything, but Wario I can see.

Also that's a real, real....real dumb statement. Who wants Luigi to be a color swap of Mario?

Call it Mario Twins if you want that so badly.

Also the shoulder thing was kinda slow and didn't have a lot of range in brawl, the backhand is by far the better choice in my opinion.
 
Well, somebody who's evil Mario will probably become famous. Because being in the Mario brand and being Mario's rival, you'll get more on screen time. In my eyes, Wario will always be Mario's evil double or something.

Even though you say he evolved into his own character, good for you! always finding the good in everything. I'll leave you to your opinion and I'll have mine.
 
I'm not trolling, I'm trying to be nice without busting out with rage, because the way WarioLander and Shyguy replied to me got me upset.

I just like the backhand more than the shoulder thing. I'm not sure why, probably just because it reminds me of Wario being an Evil-ish Mario. Not fully Evil though.
 
Wasn't trying to be rude. I just find it ...surprising... that someone would prefer a generic evil twin over a fleshed-out character.

Anyway, the fact remains that even if Sakurai really just wanted Wario to play "better" he STILL could've made the shoulder tackle into his dash attack.
 
I don't want to start anything Kyon but if you were to dig more into Wario you'd see he's more than just an "evil Mario". As mentioned before that is like saying Luigi is a green Mario even though he has evolved far from that. Wario was only even bad in like his first 3 initial appearances. I don't normally like to push back on opinions but you keep pushing your opinion even you clearly lack the experience with Wario to really do so...
 
Kyon said:
It also feels stronger and faster when I use Wario.
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Forgive me if I sound angry here, but let me just vent about how awful this change is. He cited the reasons for the new version being more useful being power and range. First off, his f-smash was fine in Brawl. It moved him forward a tad, so while it had less range than this version, it had a decent amount. There's also the factor that if range was truly a problem, they could just have him move forward a little bit more. It's not that hard to fix the range issue. He also noted that he uses his body, rather than extending an attack like his fist, making him more vulnerable. This would be true, if that wasn't already dealt with in Brawl, where he was given super armor on its active frames specifically for that reason. His last reason, the fact that its power wasn't useful enough, could easily be negated by just making his shoulder bash more powerful.

And then there are the parts about this move that make it functionally worse. Firstly, it's significantly slower. Whereas in Brawl it was active on frames 9-11 and ended on frame 44 for a total of 33 frames of endlag, the new version is active on frames 18-19 and ends on frame 66, for a total of 47 frames of endlag. So, yeah, it's pretty slow. And then there's the next factor: It doesn't always work. Because the attack starts so late into the animation and isn't active for very long, the hitbox only comes out when the fist is fully extended. And because Wario leans forward so much, his fist will often be extended completely past his opponent if he's too close to them, resulting in harmlessly punching the air behind them and leaving himself completely vulnerable to punishment. Its range is a little longer than Brawl's, which could have been compensated for by increasing the (already adequate) range of Brawl's version. It's more powerful than in Brawl, which would only require making adjustments to its knockback values that they already ended up making anyway. It's a functionally-inferior attack that removes any reference to Wario's own series and tries to address flaws which could have easily been addressed by making slight adjustments to the already-existing move. That is why Sakurai's explanation does not fly with me.
 
King Hehehe said:
Forgive me if I sound angry here, but let me just vent about how awful this change is. He cited the reasons for the new version being more useful being power and range. First off, his f-smash was fine in Brawl. It moved him forward a tad, so while it had less range than this version, it had a decent amount. There's also the factor that if range was truly a problem, they could just have him move forward a little bit more. It's not that hard to fix the range issue. He also noted that he uses his body, rather than extending an attack like his fist, making him more vulnerable. This would be true, if that wasn't already dealt with in Brawl, where he was given super armor on its active frames specifically for that reason. His last reason, the fact that its power wasn't useful enough, could easily be negated by just making his shoulder bash more powerful.

And then there are the parts about this move that make it functionally worse. Firstly, it's significantly slower. Whereas in Brawl it was active on frames 9-11 and ended on frame 44 for a total of 33 frames of endlag, the new version is active on frames 18-19 and ends on frame 66, for a total of 47 frames of endlag. So, yeah, it's pretty slow. And then there's the next factor: It doesn't always work. Because the attack starts so late into the animation and isn't active for very long, the hitbox only comes out when the fist is fully extended. And because Wario leans forward so much, his fist will often be extended completely past his opponent if he's too close to them, resulting in harmlessly punching the air behind them and leaving himself completely vulnerable to punishment. Its range is a little longer than Brawl's, which could have been compensated for by increasing the (already adequate) range of Brawl's version. It's more powerful than in Brawl, which would only require making adjustments to its knockback values that they already ended up making anyway. It's a functionally-inferior attack that removes any reference to Wario's own series and tries to address flaws which could have easily been addressed by making slight adjustments to the already-existing move. That is why Sakurai's explanation does not fly with me.
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Well said, it took more work to animate a new worse move than it would have to tweak the values on an existing attack that was already animated and in the game.
 
And it would have functioned way better, too. The one thing I can imagine being an issue there is Sakurai wanting to remove the armor so that Little Mac is more unique, but then there's still a plethora of ways to deal with that. Giving it a little bit more disjoint could work, for example. If having a hitbox too far from his body is an issue, they could simply have his shoulder and upper arm expand, sort of like his fist does in the new animation. Then, they could give his arm invulnerability sort of like how Bowser's feet are intangible in his own f-smash, which would distance the move's range from his hurtboxes without making it look like he hit the air in front of them and they got hit. Otherwise, they could simply give his entire body invincibility during the active frames rather than super armor, which is again something that happens in some smash attacks (Bowser and Lucas' up-smashes, for example). There were many, many ways that any issues could have been dealt with by simply altering the old move. Less work, better functionality, better representation of the character.
 
I know he evolved. *Plays pokemon evolve music* But I just like how he's supposed to be evil Mario, or mean not fully evil Mario. I just like the backfist more, only because it's like him coping Mario's attack.

I know, I know he evolved. Like you guys are saying, but it's like going back to his roots of being evil-ish. Are you guys saying Wario is Mario's friend now? this cannot be. Simply put it I like Wario the evil Mario clone he was, doesn't mean I hate the new Wario. I just like Evil Wario more so than...less evil-ish Wario.

I dunno why, I dunno why. I'm still gonna be attacked, aren't I?
 
You're not being attacked, people are just describing why they disagree. Wario has plenty that represents that connection already. Showing his roots as just an evil counterpart to Mario shouldn't take priority over representing his main series. They already show that facet of Wario's character, so ignoring his more prominent characterization is not something I approve of.
 
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I never really saw Wario as straight-up evil. He did bad things but mostly because he was selfish or jealous. When I hear "evil" I think of someone who does bad things because he enjoys doing bad things. Like Bowser, who just wants to overthrow the mushroom kingdom because he wants to.
 
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Pigmask Colonel said:
I think that Wario has a very strong chance of returning, given the fact that Ashley and Waluigi (yes, in the direct it showed a Wario universe symbol with Waluigi) have been confirmed as ATs. Anyway, Wario really should have represented the Wario Land series instead of WarioWare. That was just...UGH.
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He represents both, he has a boatload of moves from Wario World(Essentially Warioland on console), actully more than Ware.

Also, Ware was, at the time of Brawl, his much stronger series and deserved the focus.


ShyGuyXXL said:
They better give Wario his trademark moves or I'll flip my shit.
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Dash Attack and arguably Power Throw are the only ones missing, and he already has Coin Inhale from World(slightly revamped), his Spin Throw from World, his Ground Pound, Corkscrew Conk from World, and a vast majority of his punches are also based on his animations in World.

Also, his Waft is based on his gross persona that WARIOLAND established(but which was removed in localization) and which has reached every type of game he's in, Ware, or spinoffs.
 
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