Wario Land 4 'Hot Take'

Yeah, I don't consider that bad design, specially when the premise is to look for gold everywhere. Tbf that room isn't even the worst case, it's actually pretty easy to find when in that mindset tbh. I found it first try
 
Robin said:
Yeah, I don't consider that bad design, specially when the premise is to look for gold everywhere.
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One of my favorite aspects of the Wario games is definitely exploration and puzzles, and since Wario is a treasure hunter, it makes sense to include lots of fake walls with secret treasure and stuff.

also, that room from before? I've noticed that the developers liked to reuse that puzzle... although I will agree that this one is much easier to solve because it's later in the game and is easier to get the rock.
10895
 
I would understand the complaints about Level Design within the normal difficulty.
But S-Hard isn't fair, I thought that was the whole point?

Doodle Woods, The Big Board, Domino Row, Hotel Horror, Golden Passage...
These levels aren't designed well in terms of difficulty because it's an unlockable difficulty for those who have mastered the game.
They backhand the player for even trying, holding information away from the player that is required to progress that only those who knew the levels inside-out would be able to spot.

Palm Tree Paradise is literally enemy spam.
Wario Land 4 treats obvious and funneling level design as a crutch placed in by the devs to alleviate difficulty issues.
Not to mention the low starting health, cheap tricks (apple monkeys throwing shit during a strict timer to fuck you over), and out of place frog switches forcing you to play the whole level under a timer.
 
Wario Land 4 hot takes? Okay. Out of all the Wario Lands this one has the worst use for coins.

Actually, is that really a hot take? Seems more like a fact.
 
wariolandgoldpiramid said:
I'd say Wario Land 3 is worst.
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Right, I want to ask the same question as to why, I'm just curious.

If I had to make a list on which game works best and how it's used, I'd go like this:

1 - Wario Land Shake It: You use coins to unlock worlds, so they become important for progression, plus they challenge you to collect them in order to get CDs back, which is awesome;
2 - Wario Land 2: Let's you use your coins to play minigames and unlock an extra stage. It also allows you to get the treasures if you want to get 100%;
3 - Wario Land 4: Allows you to play between 3 minigames and collect another currency to make bosses easier for you, each animation for what you can buy is pretty nice, so worth giving that a try. You also unlock the Karaoke in the Sound Room if you get a gold crown in each stage. This is also achieved by collecting coins, gives me a reason to go back and try;
4 - Wario Land 3: They're worth nothing, we're not talking about the Music Coins which give very underwhelming prize once you find them all. The only thing coins are used for is to play the infamous golf minigame and that's all there is;
5 - Wario Land and VB Wario Land: They work similar, both allow you to play one of 2 minigames at the end of stages, one for more money and another for lives. I don't recall if VB does this as well, but Wario Land SML3 counts the coins for the true ending. It's in last because it's pretty tame, no real prize for it (unless you consider getting the true ending a good enough prize).

And for non Wario Land titles:
Wario World uses coins to give you a continue and buy garlic to replenish health. Meh, not bad, they make them actively used in the game but not really that great either.
Wario Master of Disguise: Ummm, it's just a score counter, I guess? Give you a different title screen the more you have... Idk, it's not that great.
 
Oh shoot I could have sworn in Wario Land 3 you could use coins to play a minigame that unlocked a final level just like Wario Land 2. I guess not. Yeah Wario Land 3 is the worst then. But I would still argue that 4 is not that good. You use them to play minigames similarly to WL2, but instead of giving you an immediate reward that will get you 100% of the game, it gives you frog coins. The frog coins are entirely optional and weaken the boss. Useful if you are playing Very Hard, but in Normal you have plenty of time to beat the boss so why go through the trouble of playing those minigames? And those minigames are tedious! You have to play them a bunch to get the good items!

I'd say Wario Land 1, 2, and Shake It made the best use of coins since they are needed to progress/ get the best ending.

Collecting money and treasure was always the big focus of these games, so if there was a new Wario land I'd like them to utilize coins in many different ways. To buy health like in Wario World. To play minigames that give you treasure like in Wario Land 2. To buy items that will help you beat the boss. And to open special doors similarly to Wario Land 1. That way you have even more incentive to collect as many coins and jewels as possible.
 
Koopaul said:
Oh shoot I could have sworn in Wario Land 3 you could use coins to play a minigame that unlocked a final level just like Wario Land 2. I guess not. Yeah Wario Land 3 is the worst then. But I would still argue that 4 is not that good. You use them to play minigames similarly to WL2, but instead of giving you an immediate reward that will get you 100% of the game, it gives you frog coins. The frog coins are entirely optional and weaken the boss. Useful if you are playing Very Hard, but in Normal you have plenty of time to beat the boss so why go through the trouble of playing those minigames? And those minigames are tedious! You have to play them a bunch to get the good items!

I'd say Wario Land 1, 2, and Shake It made the best use of coins since they are needed to progress/ get the best ending.

Collecting money and treasure was always the big focus of these games, so if there was a new Wario land I'd like them to utilize coins in many different ways. To buy health like in Wario World. To play minigames that give you treasure like in Wario Land 2. To buy items that will help you beat the boss. And to open special doors similarly to Wario Land 1. That way you have even more incentive to collect as many coins and jewels as possible.
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The coin system in WL4 is good IMO, it's just that the minigames to earn them aren't that good. If you play them only for harvesting Frog Medals, I'd recommend playing The Wario Hop. The others are just not efficient enough to make the effort worthwhile.
And yes, the items can be useful to use against bosses when they are too hard, especially in Hard or S-Hard mode, and especially with the Golden Diva.
 
If anything, my biggest complaint would be that the bosses are way too easy and rely too much on the gimmick of beating them as fast as possible:
  • Spoiled Rotten is a totally defenseless punching bag who is only memorable for the unbelievably horrific facial expression that she suddenly starts making once Wario gets her down to her last few hit points, and that utterly ridiculous 15-second time limit she has on Super Hard Mode can just go straight to Hell for all I care (technically, you actually can overcome this without using an item, but it requires straight-up TAS-perfect timing on your part; also, you'd damn better know about the whole "turning off the game so that you still keep your item" trick if/when you somehow manage to still run out of time on Spoiled Rotten's Super Hard fight even after using the highest-level item available at that point in the game)
  • Aerodent is basically the same deal, taking absolutely forever to allow you to attack him and having far too much health in addition to being damned near defenseless himself; luckily, he's still quite possible to get all three chests on without using items in Hard Mode, but on Super Hard...yeah, not so much. Get ready to start grinding the Wario Hop minigame for a LOT of Frog Coins and then guess what he's weak against
  • Catbat would actually be pretty forgivable if not for the obnoxious "repeatedly bouncing off head" trick he forces you to do on Super Hard
  • Cractus, of course, has that stupid stun-lock trick that he also forces you to do on Super Hard if you want to get all of his treasures without items
  • Cuckoo Condor's fight, even though his first form looks downright horrifying in every way, is just plain lazily designed in every way (during his aforementioned first form: he hardly ever attacks with his arms, and both of them do the exact same attack anyway, with said attack being downright laughably easy to avoid in both cases; his claw attack is just plain pathetically easy to avoid and counter since only the standard shoulder-charge is required in order to counter it; also, you can actually deliberately let his claw swing right through you after making him hit himself with it, and it still won't damage you or even cause any knockback-toward-the-wall-blades to you. Once he reaches his second form: all you have to do is catch his eggs, jump straight up toward him and throw them up at his weak point while at the peaks of your jumps, and BAM, you win.) He represents by far the most difficult passage in the game (especially on Super Hard), yet is somehow the overall easiest boss in the game
  • I'm certainly glad that getting all of Golden Diva's treasures without using items is still possible on Super Hard, but my GOD is her true-face phase lame (again, despite how absolutely horrific it looks); would have been a lot better if she took somewhere between six and eight hits during that phase TBH, given how much floor is still left for her to collapse by the time that the average player gets through her "Large Marge" phase
 
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xandermartin98 said:
If anything, my biggest complaint would be that the bosses are way too easy and rely too much on the gimmick of beating them as fast as possible:
  • Spoiled Rotten is a totally defenseless punching bag who is only memorable for the unbelievably horrific facial expression that she suddenly starts making once Wario gets her down to her last few hit points, and that utterly ridiculous 15-second time limit she has on Super Hard Mode can just go straight to Hell for all I care (technically, you actually can overcome this without using an item, but it requires straight-up TAS-perfect timing on your part; also, you'd damn better know about the whole "turning off the game so that you still keep your item" trick if/when you somehow manage to still run out of time on Spoiled Rotten's Super Hard fight even after using the highest-level item available at that point in the game)
  • Aerodent is basically the same deal, taking absolutely forever to allow you to attack him and having far too much health in addition to being damned near defenseless himself; luckily, he's still quite possible to get all three chests on without using items in Hard Mode, but on Super Hard...yeah, not so much
  • Catbat would actually be pretty forgivable if not for the obnoxious "repeatedly bouncing off head" trick he forces you to do on Super Hard
  • Cractus, of course, has that stupid stun-lock trick that he also forces you to do on Super Hard if you want to get all of his treasures without items
  • Cuckoo Condor's fight, even though his first form looks downright horrifying in every way, is just plain lazily designed in every way (during his aforementioned first form: he hardly ever attacks with his arms, and both of them do the exact same attack anyway; his claw attack is laughably easy to avoid and counter since only the standard shoulder-charge is required in order to counter it; also, you can actually deliberately let his claw swing right through you ever making him hit himself with it, and it still won't damage you or even cause any knockback-toward-the-wall-blades to you. Once he reaches his second form, all you have to do is catch his eggs, jump straight up toward him and throw them up at his weak point while at the peak of your jump, and BAM, you win.) He represents by far the most difficult passage in the game (especially on Super Hard), yet is somehow the single easiest boss in the game overall
  • I'm certainly glad that getting all of Golden Diva's treasures without using items is still possible on Super Hard, but my GOD is her true-face phase lame (again, despite how absolutely horrific it looks); would have been a lot better if she took somewhere between six and eight hits during that phase TBH, given how much floor is still left for her to collapse by the time that the average player gets through her "Large Marge" phase
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Ok, my 2 cents on this one. I honestly love the bosses in this game, I find them quite creative and challenging overall. They're unique as are all other bosses in the other Wario Land games.
Looking at what you wrote, I think we strongly disagree with one another in where I say:

Spoiled Rotten: Easy boss to work as a tutorial boss, you learn the ins and outs of what to do and it works like a punching bag, it's fun. That scary face happens when it has 3 points of health left, once you get to Super Hard mode, you should've noticed it. If not, well take the hit, it's not like it'll hit you without you running into it.

Aerodent: This is where I think you don't really get the idea. It's a boss about precision, fast accuracy, where you have to time your jumps properly to make sure you hit him and not the balloon. You can stun-lock him forever if you're precise. He's quite a challenge, and requires focus, not just aimlessly barging onto him.

Catbat: I never had to stun-lock him to get the 3 chests in Super Hard. You have enough time to wait for a wave and hit him. It's meant to challenge your rhythmic jumps, it has a pattern to it. Hop on a wave, hop on his head, rinse and repeat.

Cractus: Come on, you really don't need to stun-lock him to get the 3 treasures in SH. This one is more based on ladder skills, hopping on and dropping off them, using the height to hit him. And the stun-lock is also easy to pull off but not everyone will know they can do it right away.

Cuckoo Condor: I agree, the first phase is easy, but IMO, it's fun. That's probably one of the most memorable things in a Wario Land boss fight. The swinging of the claw to hit him back is quite satisfying. The second phase though, if you call that easy, well you're better than me for sure, that thing is torture! Again, challenges your throwing skills. That guy's eggs pop out so fast they keep knocking mine off my hand and I get swallowed by the exploding offsprings! I guess I need to be quicker, but that's where I lack the skills. Even though I love the first part for the fight, I must say it's my least favorite just because of how nightmarish that second part is to me.

And the Golden Diva? Nothing to say here, tests your skills, if you think it's easy, that means you're good! I find it easy too. That real face phase at the end is supposed to feel satisfying too, easy but you beat the crap out of her as a final blow after how crazy it gets before that.

I think you don't really get the essence of Wario Land. It's an exploration-based platformer, which is meant to be played on a handheld, so short bursts, maybe a stage or 2 every playthrough. The focus is not the bosses, but they do test you on your skills. Nowadays you have time to sit back and play it through in one sitting, but that's not the way this game was designed to be played. Remember Nintendo's philosophy on making handheld games. They always try to make them long enough for someone to come back to, challenges that can be beaten in short bursts and it even gives you the chance to "Quit" in the pause menu, which is basically a sleep mode where it saves your progress temporarily for you to reload and continue where you left off.
 
I still don't remember any of the bosses being too tricky. Then again, Super Hard is what it says on the tin; it's meant to be unfair. If you can't play near perfectly, then you use items to beat bosses quickly instead.
 
I just beat WL4 S-Hard (without items I might add) recently, and imo, Catbat and Aerodent are definitely the two hardest bosses.

To beat Aerodent, you have to get lots of consecutive hits without missing his tiny hitbox or else he goes flying back up to the top of the stage. It was pretty frustrating, but it felt rewarding finally beating him.

Catbat... his first phase was easy enough, but I just wouldn't have enough time to beat him the normal way. Even when I did the quick kill, I only had maybe 10 seconds remaining to get the best ending.

If you think about it... maybe the developers intended to have quick kills in most of the bosses? I mean, 4/6 bosses all have quick kills, except for Spoiled Rotten and Cuckoo Conductor, and you're intended to beat them super quickly...
 
I didn't think the bosses were too hard honestly. Now I personally think Normal Mode is the mode you judge any game by. This is the standard mode. And if the items from the store aren't worth your trouble in Normal Mode then they basically made frog coins rather pointless. They're a grind to get and you probably don't need them. So I stand by my statement that coins/jewels in Wario Land 4 aren't that good.
 
The bosses don't change between Normal, Hard and Super Hard, they're exactly the same. The only difference is the timer.
 
You guys wanna talk about bad stage design? Instead of putting effort into complaining about hidden areas behind walls and stuff, just check Wario Land 3: Above the Clouds stage. While the platforming is alright, challenging and kinda end-game stuff, the Green Chest challenge (the one you unlock by freeing the balloon) is stupid. So the objective (for those who forgot or don't know about it) is to climb all the way to the balloon, a 2 screens high section with cloud platforms fading in and out. So after huge torture of trying not to fall off (one misstep and you're back at the bottom unless you're lucky), you finally reach the door with the ballon posing as a platform. Somehow, because the climb is such a hassle sometimes, I skip past the freaking thing because I forgot the objective, that's how taxing it is to climb all that. But anyway, once you're there, you enter the door, only to be greeted with a Mini-Game Clear block on the left. Now one of these will happen: either you scour the place looking for said mini-game and can't find it and wonder if you have to climb up more to find it or if you missed it on the way up; or you reached the place without knowing you needed the mini-game and realize it was at VERY BEGINNING of the stage (I'd just take a break if the climb was too rough or just rage quit). So not only do you have to remember/know in advance that the mini-game needs to be cleared to get that chest or you suffer the demise of having to climb that devilish platforming section not once, but twice.
The least they could do is have some indication that the minigame is required to find the chest, that way you're prepared for it.
And this is not the only time this happens, this is just the most frustrating example. I'd forgive it if the minigame was actually super fun, but it's just meh (some people just hate it).

Let's move to Wario Land 2: Hidden behind walls it the name of the game. You have to break EVERYTHING to find stuff in that game. If you see a wall, ram into it, there's 70% chance there's something behind it. There are at least 2 entire stages built on this mechanic of breaking tunnels to progress.

All and all, I don't mind any of this. I just want to let you know that Wario Land 4 is better than most think and nitpicking can backfire. Let's just appreciate the games as they are because that's why we're fans of Wario.

EDIT: I'm defending Wario Land 4, but I'd defend any Wario Land game the same way. I just made it sound like Wario Land 3 is a piece of garbage and Wario Land 4 is better, but it's not the case. I do rate Wario Land 4 as my favorite but I consider Wario Land 3 and 4 to be as good as one another, just with different gameplay ideas, thus why I call Wario Land 4 my favorite. No disrespect.
 
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