Wario games shouldn't be cute.

[Koopaul]

With the recent Ware games and Shake It I've noticed Wario starting away from the bizarre and ugly games of the GBA/Gamecube era. Sure they're still "weird" but not on a WTF eye popping level. It's more of a quirky cute kind of weird. And that's my issue. The Wario brand was slowly getting cuter.

My design philosophy is that the protagonist of a series should reflect the major style and tone of a game/movie/show and vice-versa. Wario is a weird, mean, and ugly brute. So it makes sense for his games to be weird, mean, and ugly. Sure there can be some cute stuff. It's not forbidden. But the overall feel of his games should be what we've seen in Wario Land 4, Wario World, and the original WarioWare.

I think I've talked about this before but I started think about it again and wonder what some of your thoughts are on the subject?

 

[607]

Hm, I'm not sure. I like the style of Wario Land 3, which has a lot of cute enemies. However, bashing them away does look pretty harsh. I haven't played The Shake Dimension yet, but I've heard some feedback against the enemy kill animations, there. I guess I can't judge until I've played one of the cuter games. :P

 

[Koopaul]

Having cute characters in a Wario game is fine. Even cute levels. But the overall game should not be predominantly cute.

Shake It wasn't "cute" per say but it lacked the edge that the other Wario Land games had. The sound design didn't have that same wham BAM! The aesthetic were gorgeous but not in a way that says "Wario". It's hard to describe but something was always off in that game. It needed to push things a little further. I feel like the roughness of a Wario game was lost in Shake It. Not just in gameplay but visually too.

 

[SpiritNightz99]

Having cute characters in a Wario game is fine. Even cute levels. But the overall game should not be predominantly cute.

Shake It wasn't "cute" per say but it lacked the edge that the other Wario Land games had. The sound design didn't have that same wham BAM! The aesthetic were gorgeous but not in a way that says "Wario". It's hard to describe but something was always off in that game. It needed to push things a little further. I feel like the roughness of a Wario game was lost in Shake It. Not just in gameplay but visually too.

I can see where you coming from. I like both the new style and the old style, but i do miss the edgier style of Wario. He has always been a kinda comedic character in japan, but i do miss the more ugly side of Wario.

Also, speaking of Wario, about Warioware. The thing i miss in the older warioware games are the more insane stuff and the facial expressions. When you see the older style of Warioware, you can see how all the characters could have goofy faces and such, and it could be taken to the extreme, which is really shown with Orbulon ( since he is an alien ) and Dr. Crygor. Hell, even the girls had more wacky facial expressions! But now, with the new style, it suffers alot, since the characters barely emote, and they only have like 2-3 expressions, 4 if lucky. Mostly, they have the same facial expression in cutscenes, barely making their words match their expression. Orbulon and Crygor is the worst case, since they where so expressive, now they barely emote.

That's the kind of flaw with Wario nowdays. They don't go all out in my opinion and what made Wario games fun before was that they had more wacky humor and such, now...it is kinda like a diet cola. It is drinkable, but it dosen't have the same good taste. I still love Wario's new games and still love Warioware, it is a shame that it isn't as wacky as before.

 

[607]

I can see where you coming from. I like both the new style and the old style, but i do miss the edgier style of Wario. He has always been a kinda comedic character in japan, but i do miss the more ugly side of Wario.

Also, speaking of Wario, about Warioware. The thing i miss in the older warioware games are the more insane stuff and the facial expressions. When you see the older style of Warioware, you can see how all the characters could have goofy faces and such, and it could be taken to the extreme, which is really shown with Orbulon ( since he is an alien ) and Dr. Crygor. Hell, even the girls had more wacky facial expressions! But now, with the new style, it suffers alot, since the characters barely emote, and they only have like 2-3 expressions, 4 if lucky. Mostly, they have the same facial expression in cutscenes, barely making their words match their expression. Orbulon and Crygor is the worst case, since they where so expressive, now they barely emote.

That's the kind of flaw with Wario nowdays. They don't go all out in my opinion and what made Wario games fun before was that they had more wacky humor and such, now...it is kinda like a diet cola. It is drinkable, but it dosen't have the same good taste. I still love Wario's new games and still love Warioware, it is a shame that it isn't as wacky as before.

Wait, so you're saying that the characters are actually less expressive in the more recent WarioWare games? That totally could be the case, I've only played the original and it's been a while since I last did so. In the sentence I highlighted in the quote you seem to be saying the opposite, though. :P I guess you just didn't word it as intended.

 

[Koopaul]

I think it goes without saying that WarioWare didn't need to give their characters dialogue. The humor was all visual and surreal. The humor took a completely different turn in Gold. It seemed... generic. Instead of the stylized and out-of-this-world humor of the old WarioWare.

 

[TB100]

While the heavier use of dialogue is a probable factor in Gold's more lackluster cutscenes.

I don't think the dialogue by itself is the issue, shows like Ed Edd n Eddy, Rocko and Ren and Stimpy amongst other shows have plenty of dialogue and were completely insane and wacky and had plenty of visual humor and gags. Hell, even the previous Warioware games had dialogue, they just weren't voiced acted.

The main issue with Gold's presentation was how static and unanimated it was. There was barely any movement, little visual humor, no weirdness, barely any facial expressions, just characters standing around talking while doing little acting with little expression, which is just boring as hell. Warioware may have always had limited animation, but previous games were fun and full of life, movement and energy, whereas Gold's is just lifeless and static are just lifeless and staic.

This is one area where Warioware Gold Reanimated really improves on, thanks to all the animators, the cutscenes just have more energy than they did in the original game.


A little fun, expressiveness, energy and movement can go a long way and Gold's cutscenes lack that most of the time.

 

[SpiritNightz99]

While the heavier use of dialogue is a probable factor in Gold's more lackluster cutscenes.

I don't think the dialogue by itself is the issue, shows like Ed Edd n Eddy, Rocko and Ren and Stimpy amongst other shows have plenty of dialogue and were completely insane and wacky and had plenty of visual humor and gags. Hell, even the previous Warioware games had dialogue, they just weren't voiced acted.

The main issue with Gold's presentation was how static and unanimated it was. There was barely any movement, little visual humor, no weirdness, barely any facial expressions, just characters standing around talking while doing little acting with little expression, which is just boring as hell. Warioware may have always had limited animation, but previous games were fun and full of life, movement and energy, whereas Gold's is just lifeless and static are just lifeless and staic.

This is one area where Warioware Gold Reanimated really improves on, thanks to all the animators, the cutscenes just have more energy than they did in the original game.


A little fun, expressiveness, energy and movement can go a long way and Gold's cutscenes lack that most of the time.

Yeah, and that’s what i meant! While i don’t hate Gold ( i really love the game ), the cutscenes could have been alot better. It is nice to see the characters say whole sentences ( espacilly Wario! ), the cutscenes suffer alot, since the characters are so stilted everything was and there was no visual humor or wackiness at all in it. The expressions barely changed and it had no energy, like in the original games. While it had limited animation, you could tell how much life it had, unlike gold.

Also, i love the reanimated collab, which shows that these animators can bring alot of more emotion in these scenes than in the original game. Plus, i am also a part of it, and i am pretty excited about my shot being shown next!

 

[Just a Wario Fan]

While the heavier use of dialogue is a probable factor in Gold's more lackluster cutscenes.

I don't think the dialogue by itself is the issue, shows like Ed Edd n Eddy, Rocko and Ren and Stimpy amongst other shows have plenty of dialogue and were completely insane and wacky and had plenty of visual humor and gags. Hell, even the previous Warioware games had dialogue, they just weren't voiced acted.

The main issue with Gold's presentation was how static and unanimated it was. There was barely any movement, little visual humor, no weirdness, barely any facial expressions, just characters standing around talking while doing little acting with little expression, which is just boring as hell. Warioware may have always had limited animation, but previous games were fun and full of life, movement and energy, whereas Gold's is just lifeless and static are just lifeless and staic.

This is one area where Warioware Gold Reanimated really improves on, thanks to all the animators, the cutscenes just have more energy than they did in the original game.


A little fun, expressiveness, energy and movement can go a long way and Gold's cutscenes lack that most of the time.

You might say that Gold felt more polished in art style compared to the earlier WW games, especially Mega Microgames$ and Twisted!, but that Gold is, despite its better look, a visually and story-wise (and most certainly also humour-wise) less aesthetic game. It looks good, but it doesn't give you that typical "WarioWare" feeling.
When I compare the overall game of WarioWare: Twisted, my favourite WW game, with Gold, the latter feels 'cold' and 'chromed', so to speak.
So yes, the general feeling that I have of that game, while having its good sides, is radically different from my much 'warmer' feelings of the other WarioWare games, especially the earlier ones, but even Smooth Moves still feels a lot better in this regard than Gold. And I don't want to diss this game, but you are certainly right in this regard.

Hm, I'm not sure. I like the style of Wario Land 3, which has a lot of cute enemies. However, bashing them away does look pretty harsh. I haven't played The Shake Dimension yet, but I've heard some feedback against the enemy kill animations, there. I guess I can't judge until I've played one of the cuter games. :P

Even if games have cute enemies and character designs, that doesn't mean the game itself is adorable. The cute design of some enemies in Wario Land games is solely to exploit is as a means of black comedy when you can brutally smack, shoulder-bash or ground-pound those adorable creatures into oblivion and get coins for it, which is not "cute" at all, of course, cut certainly adds a twisted element of charm to the gameplay.
And even without such things, a game that has an adorable design doesn't have to be that. Take your signature for example: The Yoshi's Island series for example is one heck of a cutefest, but is can be quite dark in the latter levels of the games. And don't even get me started on the Kirby series... I think you can see what I mean.
But I agree with @Koopaul that Wario games shouldn't be cute. But of course this doesn't mean that everything has to be like a horror game; cute games don't have to be cute 24/7 to still be considered as such, and of course the reverse also applies.

 

[Koopaul]

I never really cared about WarioWare having a story. My love for it came from the fact that it would surprise you. WarioWare wasn't just wacky and zany, it was downright bizarre. Mona pulls out a monkey wearing a visor to shoot bananas at cop cars. I mean just look at this!



The words "numbskull" fly through space, hit a meteor as a chorus going "Oooh ooooh!" as it colides with the ship. The sound effects. The music. The presentation. It all makes you ask "WTF am I watching!" Someone in the comments section for that video said "Fever dream" because it is.

It doesn't matter how well you animate WarioWare Gold, it will never be on the same eye popping level of classic WarioWare. We might as well be comparing apples and oranges. Gold went for silly. Classic WarioWare went for cerebral.

Simply put old WarioWare was the equivalent of Youtube Poop. An oddity written by a bunch of weirdos. Gold is mundane humor written by mundane writers.

 

[607]

Even if games have cute enemies and character designs, that doesn't mean the game itself is adorable. The cute design of some enemies in Wario Land games is solely to exploit is as a means of black comedy when you can brutally smack, shoulder-bash or ground-pound those adorable creatures into oblivion and get coins for it, which is not "cute" at all, of course, cut certainly adds a twisted element of charm to the gameplay.
And even without such things, a game that has an adorable design doesn't have to be that. Take your signature for example: The Yoshi's Island series for example is one heck of a cutefest, but is can be quite dark in the latter levels of the games. And don't even get me started on the Kirby series... I think you can see what I mean.

Very well explained, in my opinion!

 

[Glowsquid]

The main issue with Gold's presentation was how static and unanimated it was. There was barely any movement, little visual humor, no weirdness, barely any facial expressions, just characters standing around talking while doing little acting with little expression, which is just boring as hell.

I thnk the issues you and others in this thread cite with Gold's cutscenes can be chalked up to the fact that it was entirely storyboarded and animated by one guy with no formal training in animation

 

[GreenToxic]

I think you guys bring up some very good points. I very much agree that Wario games have never been primarily cute, but I would be open to the idea of them making one, although it would definitely take some work due to Wario's nature as a character, obviously. I feel like the problems you guys mentioned with Gold's main art style compared to the early 2000's Ware games can be applied to a lot of other art forms.

As technology has advanced so much, I feel like nowadays a lot of designs in general have been more smooth. Just look at cartoons nowadays compared to ones in the 90s and stuff like that (Courage the Cowardly Dog, old Spongebob, Powerpuff Girls, etc.), it's kind of outstanding how so many ones nowadays just use the same thin line bean head design (which I'm not criticizing as I'm horrible with art, I love all of them). With Gold, since the developers have a lot more experience now, a lot of the games have more of a smoother design compared to the more wacky and amateur nature of the old games. I'm not saying that the stuff of back then cannot be created nowadays, because it all really depends on style. You see more and more people experimenting with old time-y aesthetics everyday, and even abstract stuff can look more beautiful than realistic works to me sometimes. I personally love the way the microgames in the Gamer mode in Game and Wario look, they have a very nice polish to them with their varying art styles and I'd love to see a full Ware game just like that (for the Switch, hopefully!).

I think it's not just the art in Gold, however, I feel like one of the things that makes me look at the original Gamer mode so much is another thing: the speed. Gold sits at 120 bpm just like Smooth Moves, so as a result, seeing the faster GBA and DS games slowed down could also contribute to their supposed sluggishness, while the Wii, DIY, and new micrograms don't really have this problem as much. Some games had more stuff added to them, others, it was the opposite. I don't know what the exact bpm of Gamer is, but it's definitely quicker. I can see why the cutscenes in Gold don't have as much going on in them; they wanted to try something new with the voice acting and as a result also tried something new with the art, more of a South Park style which I like just as much as the old games, but to each their own, of course. I think what they should've done is put more music in the background, just like the Dancing Team's cutscenes, to make them less stiff.

If there is going to be a new Ware game, I think they should try and do the best of both worlds, keep the voice acting, now that they have more experience with it, and try a new art style that is just as expressive as the old games. I think that would be truly beautiful, but if the new game doesn't have voice acting, that's fin too, as long as they bring back the old voice actors and animation. I don't dislike Gold's style by any means, I'd say it's my favorite Ware game because of it essentially being a love letter to me, because of how long I've loved the games and being able to see everything revamped was amazing. While Rhythm Heaven Megamix is my least favorite Rhythm Heaven game, Gold had the team get the formula just right. But who knows what's in store for the team and these two beloved series. Hopefully they'll both get even more recognition going into the future, no matter what new style the team tries, because in my eyes, WarioWare and Rhythm Heaven are the two best things Nintendo has ever come up with.

 

[Chello]

i understand what you mean, i also feel like wario has been gradually shifting away from his original identity as time goes on, becoming less evil and more comedic, most likely because of sakurai making him the "funny fart man" in smash brothers.

 

[SpiritNightz99]

i understand what you mean, i also feel like wario has been gradually shifting away from his original identity as time goes on, becoming less evil and more comedic, most likely because of sakurai making him the "funny fart man" in smash brothers.

I see what ya mean, but in japan, he always been comedic and a gashole. It was only in usa where they made him more " edgy ", to appeal to western audiences. I think Sakurai gets way too much blame for this, since Wario has always been the comedic foil for Mario.

 

[Chello]

I know that he's always been comedic, what i mean is that they lean too far in that direction these days, like they want to scrub him clean of anything that makes him truly unique from any other member of the mario cast.